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Well said T.Lee. Flinch

Are you gonna eat that fat? Flinch

And now a little reality. Swat team members don't normally work the streets as undercover cops. But, occasionally, undercover cops do go on raids. That's because they know more about the local being raided, and BG's being raided.
They cover their faces for lots of reasons. One is that the face shows up real well at night. If you get into a fire fight, in the dark, you want to make it tough to be seen.
There have been some mistaken identity raids. Both cops and good guys have been shot and killed. Always the fault of the folks organizing the raid. Often the ones that don't go on the actual raid. They are responsible for notifying neighbors as the raid goes down, and to make sure the right home is raided. All the msitaken ID raids I'm aware of have been as result of some PC cop not doing his job.
Such places as Waco were named. Don't you remember that the "superiors" of that raid let their men walk into an ambush ?
You don't like the equpment they use, or their tactics in making raids ? They do that to remain safe while raiding. Long experience has shown modern law enforcement how to do this regularly and survive. Now, if you don't want them to make raids, tell them. No more drug raids. Afterall, we need not worry about "innocent" people using drugs, or alcohol. They don't hurt anybody while they are drunk or loaded. Right ?
This is exactly what happens in many areas. And the drug lords love it. That's were they set up their bussiness, where the cops won't go because of folks who don't like how they do things.
These "innocent" drunks and druggies do cause harm. They drive vehicles. They distrub the peace. They steal to get money for their drugs of choice. You want to put up with that ? Very few residential burgulars are not addicts.
These people do this for a living. If you've got a better way to do this sort of work, tell them. I'll bet real money they've tried your "better ideas". And have buried some friends as a result of somebody's "better idea". E

Emericus. I see you are from California, so maybe you remember the incident that soured me on the whole "no Knock" raid idea
There was a guy in Calif a few years back that owned a nice little ranch on the coast- worth a tidy sum if it happened to be seized by the government I guess
A DEA agant swore that the had seen Marijuana growing on the property during an overflight
A warrent was obtained because of this and a raid took place
The property owner heard his wife scream when the door was broken down and grabbed a handgun.
When he appeared at the top of the stairs he was shot and killed
No evidence of drugs was ever found
In California all parties in a crime which results in death can and should be charged with murder 1
False testimony is a crime in Calif.
So: crime commited- man dies- criminal is charged, right?
No way, no charges filed
It's OK with me if the Superiors and/or planners get the blame when something like this goes wrong, but damnit somebody should pay the price for lies or stupidity. Somewhere along the line someone is responsible but somehow these unknown people just walk away form it. Why?

I don't recall that case. But I've known several like it. The answer is to seek civil damges, like in the millions. Uncle Sugar has paid out many of our tax dollars because of this sort of thing. The ATF publicly states "we've never been sued". They've never had a case go to court, but they've been sued plenty. Uncle Sugar has always bailed them out with our money. The famous Ruby Ridge case was settled this way.
No knock raids are done for two reasons. To keep evidnece from being disposed of and for officer safety. I personally know a number of cops that were shot on drug raids. One had his face rearanged by another cop using a 12 ga. shotgun.
In spite of all this, these raids are still done. It is simply a matter of good people doing their jobs right. Ruby Ridge came about because Randy Weaver was entraped. Then a PC member of the FBI decided to change the ROE because they needed to make an example of him, I suspect. Waco went down as it did because Billy Clinton needed to make an example of them for his political agenda. Again, my take on it. There has always been alot of politics in law enforcement. E

Civill damages are fine- but guess who pays the fine? Me and you and every other taxpayer. If criminal charges and hard time could result, maybe the people responsible would be more cautious- as it is, they just go on doing this stuff
It's a tough choice, how much of our rights do we give up to lower the crime rate? I don't know the answer, but my gut tells me the present situation is not good

MONEY can not replace a loved one, not even a pet. Get a grip, our Dept. has to have all the T's crossed and I's dotted before even thinking about a raid. We have many successful arrests and seizures doing it the right way. I will not condone "sorry" when it comes to mistakes of this magnitude, no way. Sheep follow the shepherd, common sense and intelligence dictates we get it right the first time and be held accountable for ALL our actions, period. Hiding your face to keep from being identified, even in the name of camoflage is a BS excuse IMHO. They ain't looking out the windows or have sentries to "take out" like a military organization, they are usually asleep when raided. Oh, some, but damn few, are on guard, but that is what the element of suprise is all about. "POLICE, SEARCH WARRANT!" needs to be LOUDLY proclaimed as the door goes in as well as easily identifable uniforms worn, otherwise all bets are off. As I said before and will say again, BEING A PEACE OFFICER IS NOT A SAFE BUSINESS, it comes with much more risk of personal harm than many endeavors and you need to go into the job realizing this. And be willing to take the risks that are associated with it, not foolishly, but with the knowledge that you can get hurt or killed pursuing your chosen profession.

We have more than our share of druggies here as well as the normal complimet of miscreants, the Department still gets the job done some how by following the law. We even have some undercovers that attend these things, but they don't go in with the team, they go in after the scene is secured for their part. AND YEP THEY DO HIDE THEIR IDENTITY, till they testify in court.

I will never condon military type raids by Peace Officers when dealing with the criminal element, terrorists on the other hand might call for such tactics, but not with local authority alone unless there is a clear and present danger then and there.

Contrary to popular belief, we are not at war with the criminal element now any more than Wyatt Earp was. Keeping the peace and getting the BG's off the street is the function of Peace Officers, not "Search and Destroy" missions. A raid on a suspected criminal does not a "Free Fire Zone" make!

Do you by chance ever remember hearing the archaic phrase: "Presumed innocent till Proven guilty." It's the American way, I'll not tolerate street cop's being "Judge, Jury and Executioner" in my land. I might know in my heart you are guilty of a crime, but it is my job to prove it beyond a "reasonable doubt" to a court of law and jury of your peers.

Ever try to talk to one in authority,(policeman), they have all the answers,(and excuses)! A layman doesn't know anything, because the cop has been to school. He knows the only proper way to handle any situation. Especially how to cover his butt legally and physically when things go wrong. Police departments are worse than any "club" or "gang" about covering for their "brothers", be it a traffic violation or anything else. When a mistake is made it should be mandantory one step back in promotion or fired for serious mistakes with loss of pension and insurance, (Waco and Ruby Ridge). Many police agencies are irresponsible and practice entrapment to fill coffers,(and some pockets). Police are just people given authority and some are not too trustworthy just like politicians. --- Now ask me who I will call in an emergency. If at all possible I won't. Traffic accidents are a given. -- no

Case in point out of San Antonio last night. Read it in today's paper. Undercover boys had been watching a suspected drug dealer trying to find his stash. Saw him go into a house and not come out. Hurry up call to the swat team. All the happy band arrives and positons themselves. About then three individuals come out of the house. One gets in back seat of car. They thought the other one resembled the suspect. A female takes the drivers seat and starts to drive off at speed. The cops in their break in garb attempt to surround the car and demand surrender. The car speeds up and crashes into one of the parked police cars (unclear in story if it is marked or not). Police open fire.
Results. Occupant in passenger seat is 18 year old intoxicated male not the suspected drug dealer.
Back seat is occupied by a 14 year old male.
Driver is a 16 year old female, who is trying to get her drunk boyfriend home.
Outcome: They blew the brains out of a sixteen year old Mexican girl because they didn't make sure what they were doing before they did it.

I think it migh be just a tad too late to say Woops, we're sorry, big mistake. And go on about their merry way untill the next mistake.

BCR

Thank you Boggy, I rest my case.

Would like to hear the outcome of this one. Sounds like they might need to start taking guns away from our protectors. Some of these eager to play boys need to be called up for shipment to Iran. Kinda like high speed chases in metro-plex areas, two or more cars going fast in congested areas, someone is going to be hurt. It's not worth it. -- no

Damn, That set off a firestorm!

M apologies to Mr Lee. I meant no disrespect by my oldtimer comment. Thanks to everyone for posting your replies.

I fully agree that there are problems in Law Enforcement. These are usually the result of a very small minority of ego maniacal petty little men who become cops to assuage their feelings of inferiority. Most of the men and women I serve with have honor and integrity as I believe most officers do. We would never think to infringe upon a persons rights. It is very distressing to see day in and day out a BG's rights get more attention than their victims. ( that's what I meant about " some dirt bags civil liberties)

Law enforcement has changed over the last 20 years. The BG's especially the kids have absolutely no respect for anything. This is a debate on its own. I know there were automatics years ago, but today, the BG just sprays and usually ends up killing innocent civilians - kids mostly. Gang banging, drive bys, and car jackings have always been around. It just seems to be more of an epidemic in todays society.

Mr Lee, my crew does knock and announce and we wear fully marked gear. There is no mistaking us.

Hey, welcome to the board. For the most part the "firestoms" here remain unusually civil

Don't know the speed of dark but it keeps up with light! -- no

mac-- Not a real firestorm and glad you stopped by again. Almost everyone here has the utmost respect for the cops. We know as do you that the majority are just hard working individuals in a tough business doing their best to get home alive at the end of the day. It is just that the little tin gods with guns on their hips get the attention and there seem to be a lot more of them around than there used to be.
On the raids there also is most no one who thinks that they should never happen and we also know that we only hear about the ones that go sour.
What I belive most most will agree with is that since the police are suppose to be professional there is no excuse for being across the street at the wrong house. There is no excuse for shooting your partner. There is no excuse for going on just one un-substantiated report of something going down. It can not be a case of "Kill them all and let God sort them out,".
I believe that I understand the frustrations which todays PC laws bring on in the cops. What most object to is cops who hold themselves to be above or better than those who they are charged to serve and protect. We want those few individuals held accountable and their priveleges removed.


BCR

Attaway to go Boggy, sic-um!! ------- I think perhaps it's just us older Americans that see the difference. The young today just take it in stride as being normal. -- So they make a mistake, everyone does. So they shot the wrong guy, I didn't know him. -- no

mac,
in the case at ruby ridge the federal agents fired first, unannounced, without just cause, from hidden positions.

allow me to start again.....

the black hoods had and still do have at least one practical purpose. they are called blast hoods, and are worn in conjunction with electronically operated flash goggles, (similar to a modern welders flash hood, or the old S.A.C. pilots nuc flash visor) and appropriate head gear and ear protection...... these things were worn to allow operators to move in on terrorists, holding hostages, while flash bang grenades were being utilized. still a rugged way to operate, but done intelligently, it can be made to work. many hostages, when interviewed after recovery, express the desire to be shot, before beng exposed to a flash bang again........ so, the hoods can be useful under some operating conditions, in conjunction with other protective gear. just another tool in the bag.


i have never seen this sort of operation undertaken in a civil function, and i haven't given it much thought. i suppose though, that given the right exigencies it might be justifiable...... if a criminal were to announce the intention to kill or do great and irreparable harm, or offer overwhelming evidence of his ability and intentions toward the same end, it becomes more a matter of defense of life than a matter for the courts to ponder..........

if, however, in the course of daily business (be it on the street, or in my home) i discover an armed and masked person or persons, they are a legitimate target. even if i have to scour the ground for stick or stone.

if, in this country, any court or enforcement agent has business with me, let them present it with the proper accreditation........ john w

Hold on here folks. The cops surround, or attempt to surround the car ? They car attempts to flee ? Over one of the cops who got in the way ? The occupants were intoxicated ? On what ? No drugs found in the house ? Anything about any house search at all ? At press time I mean. The law, as I understand it, is that they can't raid the house before they get a warrant. Surrounding the house, with a raid team as they wait for a warrant is often done.
I've been there in things like this before. If it is reported right after the shooting, blood test results aren't published simply because they can't do them that quick.
Of all the shootings I've seen, none ever get reported accurately. The reporters leave something out because they don't see it's significance. Or, since no complete investigation is finnished yet, they simply don't have the facts. Or, often times, they have a hidden agenda. Or they can't believe that some 14-16 yr. old is a real bad guy. I've seen kids 12 yrs. old selling drugs to undercover narcs. I know of an in custody 14 yr. old girl that killed a careless deputy while in handcuffs. You suspect they are in the wrong because of what you read in paper, and the fact that a teenage girl was killed while "simply trying to take her drunk boyfriend home. "
BTW, cops do get indicted and prosecuted. I personally know of several cases. It is rare that they are convicted. Why ? Because prosecution is often based on PC motives and conclusions based on less than the complete picture.
By the time the accused cop gets to tell his side of the story - the agencies rarely do that these days - he is already on trial, etc. This has gotten so bad in places like New York City, that cops will threaten and sometimes actually do, stage a job action, like a sick in, or a work slow down, to get fair treatment for their fellow cops.
How does that strike all of you critics ? If you piss off your cops they refuse to work for you. Strap on your guns guys. Buy some hand grenades. Your cops have decided not to go to work for a while. E

Well now, since you brought it up, I can remember when everyone had a gun. We left our houses unlocked, slept with the windows open, had to hunt for a door key. That was before we had police departments with huge budgets and government taking us by the hand leading us where ever they wanted to take us. Strangers stayed on the sidewalk coming up to your front door to knock and anounce who they were and what they wanted. No one prowled around your house for fear of getting shot. People respected each other and their property. We had no drug dealers and such, they would have been taken care of by decent folks living in the community. If everyone had a gun burglaries, car jacking, rapes, gangs, would be a thing of the past. Why is it in the states where concealed carry has been authorized the crime rate has declined. Why is it police departments look for ways to give citations to the citizens to extort money from them. Our police departments have turned into a strong arm department for politicians more than anything else. Major function is traffic citations and anything to do with automobiles, license, tags, inspection stickers. The list goes on and on while becoming more and more expensive to the tax payer. Hey, you may be on to something here, arm the citizens we wouldn't have to worry if the guys in blue are going to show up or not. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> -- no

In the words of that great orator, Rodney King,

C-C-C-Can't W-W-W-We All Just-t-t G-G-Get A-A-A-Along? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But really, I don't care if they are wearing HAZMAT outfits, they need to ID themselves and have their outfits labeled large enough to be seen.

I still would have a problem with a quickly hollered "POLICE" followed immediately with my door crashing in! I can see where if my wife screamed and the dog went nuts at the sound of the door caving in and I was near a firearm, I'd have it in my hand when I entered the room.