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Joined: Oct 2002
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
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Perhaps we can have a law passed on condition 2 and have cops write tickets for those carrying as such. Akin to seatbelt laws.
If it saves one life....
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Interesting. I've owned/carried 1911s for 44 years, including better than 15 years of duty carry and have known a lot of 1911/Colt Delta packers in that time. I investigated a good number of actual and falsely reported 'accidental' shootings involving a host of firearms- but not one of them a 1911.
Typically, someone had recently purchased a new gun and were fondling and or dryfiring it when the discharge occurred. They usually eventually admitted they had reloaded the gun, forgot they had reloaded it and thought they were dryfiring an empty gun. My last (pre-retirement) LE position was at a 'base town' and unfortunately, the vast majority of ND's involved service members living off base in apartment complexes. This reinforced my belief in God and guardian angels because frequently, adjoining occupied apartments were perforated and the only injury was from bullet-shattered glass.
Firearms involved were primarily striker fired pistols and I noted the incidence of these 'thought it was unloaded' ND's increased after their introduction. But people can and do ND with single and double action revolvers, all manner of sporting shotguns and even the old Mosin-Nagant. The Mosin bellers loud enough to wake up neighbors and fortunately, that one went up through a porch roof.
I'm not calling you a liar Chippy but my opinion is that your experience vastly over-represents Condition Two NDs with the 1911, which resulted in injuries to a specific area of the body.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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I'm not advocating Ranger Miller's adventurous mode of carry. If he used a holster, I don't know what that was.
But I have known some serious, battle proven gunmen; from WWII and Korea vets right on through the Sand Wars, plus a whole lot of mayhem in the streets. I can think of four who killed multiple antagonists with an issued or personally owned 1911. A couple of them carried that pistol condition two. Given their results, I'd be disinclined to tell them they were doing it wrong.
Sadly, they're all gone now; but it was old age that got them, not 'leg wounds' from poor pistol handling. Being a seasoned lawman/gunfighter does not insulate one from the consequences of unsafe gun handling practices. Take, for instance, the story of the retired police officer from a major metropolitan department who claimed something like nine kills in the line of duty. As he was visiting with a man in the man's office, he suggested the man should keep a gun there for protection in that neighborhood. Saying, "Let me show you a real man's gun," he reached into his briefcase. That's when the 10mm 1911 in his briefcase discharged, sending the bullet through the retired officer's leg and into the man he was visiting.
Every day’s an adventure.
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
Perhaps we can have a law passed on condition 2 and have cops write tickets for those carrying as such. Akin to seatbelt laws.
If it saves one life.... Maybe if you get pulled over and have your 1911 right the cops will give you a dollar and a hearty "attaboy!"
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
I'm not advocating Ranger Miller's adventurous mode of carry. If he used a holster, I don't know what that was.
But I have known some serious, battle proven gunmen; from WWII and Korea vets right on through the Sand Wars, plus a whole lot of mayhem in the streets. I can think of four who killed multiple antagonists with an issued or personally owned 1911. A couple of them carried that pistol condition two. Given their results, I'd be disinclined to tell them they were doing it wrong.
Sadly, they're all gone now; but it was old age that got them, not 'leg wounds' from poor pistol handling. Being a seasoned lawman/gunfighter does not insulate one from the consequences of unsafe gun handling practices. Take, for instance, the story of the retired police officer from a major metropolitan department who claimed something like nine kills in the line of duty. As he was visiting with a man in the man's office, he suggested the man should keep a gun there for protection in that neighborhood. Saying, "Let me show you a real man's gun," he reached into his briefcase. That's when the 10mm 1911 in his briefcase discharged, sending the bullet through the retired officer's leg and into the man he was visiting. Sounds like he was going for CK#10.
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Campfire Regular
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OP
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Interesting. I've owned/carried 1911s for 44 years, including better than 15 years of duty carry and have known a lot of 1911/Colt Delta packers in that time. I investigated a good number of actual and falsely reported 'accidental' shootings involving a host of firearms- but not one of them a 1911.
Typically, someone had recently purchased a new gun and were fondling and or dryfiring it when the discharge occurred. They usually eventually admitted they had reloaded the gun, forgot they had reloaded it and thought they were dryfiring an empty gun. My last (pre-retirement) LE position was at a 'base town' and unfortunately, the vast majority of ND's involved service members living off base in apartment complexes. This reinforced my belief in God and guardian angels because frequently, adjoining occupied apartments were perforated and the only injury was from bullet-shattered glass.
Firearms involved were primarily striker fired pistols and I noted the incidence of these 'thought it was unloaded' ND's increased after their introduction. But people can and do ND with single and double action revolvers, all manner of sporting shotguns and even the old Mosin-Nagant. The Mosin bellers loud enough to wake up neighbors and fortunately, that one went up through a porch roof.
I'm not calling you a liar Chippy but my opinion is that your experience vastly over-represents Condition Two NDs with the 1911, which resulted in injuries to a specific area of the body. I most certainly agree with you, and with John Wayne, that you can't fix stupid. But, in looking at comments, both here and elsewhere, concerning 1911 conditions of readiness, it becomes evident that many are not aware of the hazards associated with Condition Two carry. So, they cannot take them into account. That is something which can be fixed. In dealing with any group of individuals, there will be those who are exceptionally bright, those who are of common intelligence, and those who are barely functional. To be effective, operating instructions for mechanical devices must be suitable for all individuals, even though exceptionally bright individuals may find them insultingly simple-minded.
Every day’s an adventure.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I'm not advocating Ranger Miller's adventurous mode of carry. If he used a holster, I don't know what that was.
But I have known some serious, battle proven gunmen; from WWII and Korea vets right on through the Sand Wars, plus a whole lot of mayhem in the streets. I can think of four who killed multiple antagonists with an issued or personally owned 1911. A couple of them carried that pistol condition two. Given their results, I'd be disinclined to tell them they were doing it wrong.
Sadly, they're all gone now; but it was old age that got them, not 'leg wounds' from poor pistol handling. Being a seasoned lawman/gunfighter does not insulate one from the consequences of unsafe gun handling practices. Take, for instance, the story of the retired police officer from a major metropolitan department who claimed something like nine kills in the line of duty. As he was visiting with a man in the man's office, he suggested the man should keep a gun there for protection in that neighborhood. Saying, "Let me show you a real man's gun," he reached into his briefcase. That's when the 10mm 1911 in his briefcase discharged, sending the bullet through the retired officer's leg and into the man he was visiting. And I'm sure the 1911 in that briefcase fired without the hammer at full cock, the thumb safety being off, the grip safety being depressed and the trigger being pulled. Wonder it didn't take off down the hallway, killing everybody in the building.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Campfire Regular
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HOWEVER, Condition Two (loaded chamber, hammer fully forward) is actually DANGEROUS. Should the hammer get snagged on something, drawn back to just short of the half-cock notch, then released, testing has shown that it can fire the cartridge at least three times out of five. Both the thumb safety and grip safety have been rendered useless when the pistol is in Condition Two.
No. Too stooopid. 1911 users are all in nursing homes. Besides you are way off on the danger of Condition two: the danger is simply thumb slip while manipulating the hammer. Yes. I still would carry cocked and locked so the safety is of use. I don't want the hammer against the pin. I am mostly a SA hunter but all have a transfer bar or a block. The only ones I seen fail are the freedoms. Snag the hammer and if it drops the gun will fire. Worn, super complicated parts that I have had to fashion new from good tool steel to fix. Not nice to push a hammer and see the pin come out. Since I can't see the pin with the 1911 action closed and the hammer down, is the pin resting on the primer? What will happen if the gun drops and hits the hammer? Best design ever made with the grip safety included. Go back to movies where a ninja strips the slide off your gun????
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Campfire Regular
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HOWEVER, Condition Two (loaded chamber, hammer fully forward) is actually DANGEROUS. Should the hammer get snagged on something, drawn back to just short of the half-cock notch, then released, testing has shown that it can fire the cartridge at least three times out of five. Both the thumb safety and grip safety have been rendered useless when the pistol is in Condition Two.
Since I can't see the pin with the 1911 action closed and the hammer down, is the pin resting on the primer? What will happen if the gun drops and hits the hammer? In a properly made and assembled 1911, the firing pin is shorter than the tunnel in which it fits and is held to the rear by its spring. So, when the hammer is at rest against the firing pin, the pin is not long enough to reach the primer. The firing pin is designed and intended to reach the primer only when struck by a hammer blow with enough force to overcome the firing pin's inertia and the strength of the firing pin spring.
Every day’s an adventure.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,771
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,771 |
I'm not advocating Ranger Miller's adventurous mode of carry. If he used a holster, I don't know what that was.
But I have known some serious, battle proven gunmen; from WWII and Korea vets right on through the Sand Wars, plus a whole lot of mayhem in the streets. I can think of four who killed multiple antagonists with an issued or personally owned 1911. A couple of them carried that pistol condition two. Given their results, I'd be disinclined to tell them they were doing it wrong.
Sadly, they're all gone now; but it was old age that got them, not 'leg wounds' from poor pistol handling. Being a seasoned lawman/gunfighter does not insulate one from the consequences of unsafe gun handling practices. Take, for instance, the story of the retired police officer from a major metropolitan department who claimed something like nine kills in the line of duty. As he was visiting with a man in the man's office, he suggested the man should keep a gun there for protection in that neighborhood. Saying, "Let me show you a real man's gun," he reached into his briefcase. That's when the 10mm 1911 in his briefcase discharged, sending the bullet through the retired officer's leg and into the man he was visiting. I’d like to to read this story. I call BS. I can’t see any agency keeping a guy on the street who killed 9 people. That’s a gigantic liability for the agency.
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Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
Then there is this gem. This was a rather bossy U.S. Army Major who we were tasked with protecting. Long story short she thought she was pretty hot stuff and fully equal of any of the people who were on her protection detail. We ended up in a remote province at a place where the locals were only being friendly to our faces and there was no doubt they were insurgents once they were out of our sight. This hot shot Major, who insisted that she was just as capable somehow managed to get roughly 80-100 miles from the main U.S. base without a magazine in her sidearm (her only weapon) and no spare mags. Basically she was totally incompetent. Funny thing is, none of us had any spare mags for her, as we don't carry Berettas. Another Big Army Classic! First I was discreetly trying to get these soldiers attention. We had been loaned out to provide protection/overwatch (I won't go into detail why the conventional Army and others need to be protected...) Anyways, I was trying to tell the blonde SGT shown in the center of the pic that they cannot just leave their weapons unattended in their vehicles, since were were in a small town in a province in a Iraq and they were just asking for the iraqi police to steal their weapons or have them used against them. It was not a matter of IF, it was only a matter of WHEN some Iraqi grabbed one. I was trying to be discreet, so as not to embarrass her. She thought I was motioning for her, because I wanted to hit on her.. The other thing I wanted to tell her was that as an NCO she was not exactly setting a great example since her 82nd Airborne patch was on UPSIDE DOWN.... I think I will pass on getting my weapons training from the conventional Military... Coffee and sandwiches...PERIOD
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Campfire Regular
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You guys are being trolled.....................rather successfully.
There is nothing made by man, which cannot be broken by woman.
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Posts: 10,257
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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....But, in looking at comments, both here and elsewhere, concerning 1911 conditions of readiness, it becomes evident that many are not aware of the hazards associated with Condition Two carry. So, they cannot take them into account. That is something which can be fixed.
No. What you're missing is that the vast majority here are quite aware of the difference, but some are willing and competent enough to do it their way anyway. You ain't the first to state what has been discussed here many times - and nobody asked you. It appears to all that you believe you just made this discovery, and we need your enlightenment. Hence, our sarcasm.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Campfire Regular
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My mistake. Other sites have been more receptive to this message and to the spirit in which it was offered. Sorry to have troubled you.
Every day’s an adventure.
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,293
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,293 |
And then my Detonics is /was recommended to carry in condition TWO. One in the pipe and hammer down, hence the rear sight moved forward so thumb can engage the hammer quickly. That's the way I've carried and seems to work well.
I'd rather die in a BAD gunfight than a GOOD nursing home.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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You guys are being trolled.....................rather successfully. I've suspected that since pretty early on.
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 22,930 Likes: 15
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 22,930 Likes: 15 |
And then my Detonics is /was recommended to carry in condition TWO. One in the pipe and hammer down, hence the rear sight moved forward so thumb can engage the hammer quickly. . Maybe you should go find some 'receptive other sites', like chippy does, and spiritually offer that message. I'm sure folks want to know that kinda stuff, and you can build post counts at the same time. Win/win.... P.S...... and NEVER apologize. It's a sign of weakness.
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Campfire Tracker
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Is that what would you happy there hunty, well goody for you.
I'd rather die in a BAD gunfight than a GOOD nursing home.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000 |
i just watched last night a bunch of army types on a firing line being introduced to the sig M 17. I was kind of snickering at the shooting stance of most of them, and the way they were holding the pistola and fingering the trigger. Just cause someone is in the service or has been in the service does not mean they are much capable with a handgun or rifle. On of my relatives who is in a midlevel officers position when going through the officers version of bootcamp, i think fired one magazine out of a beretta. Same with another one in another branch, he got something like five rounds from a shotgun. pretty sad really.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000 |
i was sitting here thinking about this thread and something came to mind. i was watching a ccw renewal firing line one day, about ten guys on the line. one guy had a 1911 in a holster so but raked forward, the barrel was pointing out the back, and not immediately at the ground. Since i was behind him, i decided it was a good time to move. I have never in 50years had a 1911 go off unless i wanted it too. I normally carry one of two ways. if i don't percieve a threat, ti's condition three. If i am worried about something it's condition one, but with the addition of a retainer strap between the hammer and the frame. So you have basically three safties that way. With situational awareness i try to avoid those situations where i have to play matt dillon.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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