|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,216 Likes: 26
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,216 Likes: 26 |
Goosey,
Very interesting chart! Thanks for posting it.
The first RPR I tested was chambered in .243 Winchester, which proved to be VERY accuratre, even with factory hunting ammo. But they don't even chamber the RPR in .243 anymore--because the 6mm Creedmoor has taken over that slot.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,632
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,632 |
Indy, that what I'm talking about. An honest man!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 845
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 845 |
Grandpa and Dad, myself and family members have had good results with the 270.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,703
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,703 |
Thought the Boddington 270 article was a good one. I’ve seen a few similar statements by Boddington lately on the 6.5s in web articles and in Rifleshootet. I’m guessing he is reacting to the long range fad somewhat and hype that the 6.5 CM is an extreme range hunting round. The .270 may not kill better than 6.5 CM but if something is too far or big for the .270 it’s certainly too far or too big for the mild 6.5s. You probably can’t find a bigger 270 fan than me, but I have a 6.5 CM LAW and like it for the reasons Mule Deer mentions.
Lou
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,678 Likes: 44
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,678 Likes: 44 |
This is my reality with my rifles, there is no killing difference between the two.
.277/150 ABLR/546 bc/3000 mv ..... MOA 11.3 @ 600 yds 26.5 @ 1000 yds
6.5/147ELD/697 bc/2,800 mv ....... MOA 12.2 @ 600 yds 27.1 @ 1000 yds
The 6.5 using 14 grains less powder.
I'll take the 6.5 creedmoor based on those numbers. I've tried to like the 270, but ended up selling the 3 I had. The creed just makes more sense.. This thread is about the 270 and before you know it the 6.5 Creed becomes the topic of discussion. If you mention anything critical of the 6.5 Creedmoor in any 6.5 discussion, you are some sort of malcontent. The 6.5 Creedmoor has its followers and I am happy for them, but I guarantee anyone hunting the rest of their life with the 6.5 won’t kill as much game with that cartridge as I have without it...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,474
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,474 |
And if you mention anything critical of the 270 you are some sort of malcontent.
There is not a rat hairs difference between the two in the killing field.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,678 Likes: 44
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,678 Likes: 44 |
And if you mention anything critical of the 270 you are some sort of malcontent.
There is not a rat hairs difference between the two in the killing field. Oh yeah, my dad can beat up your dad...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,933 Likes: 3
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,933 Likes: 3 |
And if you mention anything critical of the 270 you are some sort of malcontent.
There is not a rat hairs difference between the two in the killing field. Yes sir, and that’s the very reason why I don’t intend to own either one of them. Happy Trails
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 985
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 985 |
It cracks me up to be at the range with someone shooting 5 inch groups at 100 yards with their CM telling me how deadly it is at 1000. Soon as I see more than 1 out of 100 that can hit consistently at 500 or more we will talk about long range magic. If that ever becomes a thing for me I'll just roll out a 7-08 and keep the CM in irrelevance... There aint no damned magic pill...nothing is gonna shoot half inch groups at a million yards just because it is hyped to the max. Proficient long range shooting comes from years and years of practice and perfect technique. Put a good boolit in the right spot and things are easy... but I guess if there's a need to have the latest and greatest and a shot to make up for underlying deficiencies.. than by all means... carry on...and enjoy what you use...
Last edited by DoeDumper; 04/28/19.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 32,239 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 32,239 Likes: 1 |
vapodog,
What stuff does he know? He cites losing a deer as a young guy with an unspecified cartridge and bullet. If he lost the deer, how does he know what happened? Did he make a bad shot, or was it the fault of the cartridge and bullet? If it was the fault of the bullet, was it due to its caliber, weight or construction?
Similarly, how does he know any of a number of other cartridges won't work on deer won't work as well as the .270 at closer ranges?
I'm a big fan of the .270, in fact at one point about 20 years ago had used it on more big game animals than any other round--and had also watched my wife use it on plenty of big game from pronghorns to bull moose, at ranges from up close to 450 yards. In the 1990's, in fact, Eileen had string of 10 one-shot kills in a row with the .270 on not just antelope and moose but elk and big buck deer, both whitetails and muleys. It works great.
But I have since gotten plenty of experience with several 6.5's that won't match the .270's muzzle velocities. Yet they somehow work great as well--if the hunter puts the right bullet in the right place. Which in my experience is far more important than a few grains of bullet weight and minor differences in retained velocity, especially close up where the 6.5x55 has always worked very well.
I always love how these threads devolve into BOTH theoretical ballistic numbers AND field examples of one. I was using a 270 Winchester with the old Sierra Game King 130 grain bullet at about 3000 FPS. I've seen other deer gut shot and it is easy to tell by the way they hunch up and their irregular gait, again IMHO. I blame poor shooting at too long of range, as I was unable to make follow up shot count. We've killed a truck load of deer with this bullet and failure has never been a problem. As stated my use of the 6.5 CM is an example of one, merely stating my opinion that the 6.5's are not magic. Any number of other cartridge would have and do work as well as the 270, If the hunter puts the bullet in the right place any cartridge works well, including the lowly 22 Long Rifle. I've killed more than an example of one mule deer with the 300 savage, mostly one shot kills, but you have to know your limitations. I bought one of the first Ruger 77's in 6.5 CM , due in part to Mule Deer's writing. Nice rifle, a little unwieldy with the 26" barrel, but it is a shooter. I still own it and while I haven't used it on deer but once. I shoot it regularly on paper and coyotes. Hornady created a marketing craze with the 6.5 CM and now is considered by many to be the only and the greatest, enabling the average Joe to take game cleanly at extreme ranges. Probably was the same when Jack first stated writing about the 270. American hunters for years side stepped the 6.5 X 55, but somehow the 6.5 CM is the IT cartridge! I guess I've been over exposed. to the hype. I'm always amazed when discussing the Creed, conversation always tuns to retained energy and bullet drop at 1000 yards. I'm not as good a shot as Mule Deer, but don't doubt he's good to 450 yards with a 270 Winchester, as he shoots a lot, but 400 yards is a long way down the road for most of us under field conditions. Shots are generally closer than they used to be when range finders are used! The 270 has worked so well for my family and I over the last 50 years, I seldom reach for any other chambering, It works so well I've decided not to move on, at least not often Splitting hairs! I think one reason for American hunters side stepping the 6.5x55 for years was due to the fact that no American firearms manufacturer chambered rifles for it until the 1980s and until then the only available commercial ammunition was Norma and occasionally CIL and/or RWS. Prior to the 1980s, the only rifles that I ever saw chambered in 6.5x55 were surplus Norwegian Krags and Swedish Mausers. The 6.5 Creedmoor is the first commercial 6.5mm bore cartridge to be embraced by American shooters. The 256 Newton, 264 WinMag, 6.5 RemMag, and 260 Rem never captured market share anything like the 6.5 Creedmoor has.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 28,172
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 28,172 |
kid0917,
Apparently you missed the introduction of the B-29 cartridge about 20 years ago, which proved to be the best general-purpose big game round ever.  Man, I need to get out more! You sure do. JB should have given the B-29 more media exposure; it's the ultimate big game round. My 1,200 + yard one-shot kill in a gusting 90 m.p.h crosswind on a 7X7 bull elk would never have happened with any other round, not even a 50cal. Today I gave my close second to the B-29 to my stepson, a sweet 1980s Mdl 70 FW XTR 270. In all seriousness I loved the rifle, but I'll never hunt with it again, and he will join his son, Owen, in the 270 fraternity. Owen got my Husqvarna/FN 270 a few years ago and it's claimed three mulies and an antelope. I can't think of a better round than the 270 for hunting our game under our conditions here in Nevada.
Hunt with Class and Classics
Religion: A founder of The Church of Spray and Pray
Acquit v. t. To render a judgment in a murder case in San Francisco... EQUAL, adj. As bad as something else. Ambrose Bierce “The Devil's Dictionary”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,632
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,632 |
kid0917,
Apparently you missed the introduction of the B-29 cartridge about 20 years ago, which proved to be the best general-purpose big game round ever. Man, I need to get out more! You sure do. JB should have given the B-29 more media exposure; it's the ultimate big game round. My 1,200 + yard one-shot kill in a gusting 90 m.p.h crosswind on a 7X7 bull elk would never have happened with any other round, not even a 50cal. Today I gave my close second to the B-29 to my stepson, a sweet 1980s Mdl 70 FW XTR 270. In all seriousness I loved the rifle, but I'll never hunt with it again, and he will join his son, Owen, in the 270 fraternity. Owen got my Husqvarna/FN 270 a few years ago and it's claimed three mulies and an antelope. I can't think of a better round than the 270 for hunting our game under our conditions here in Nevada. I whole heartily agree!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,418
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,418 |
Around here Bull Elk hunting goes to about 300 yards,
It might take an hour to go that 300.
I take only broadside shots , and I find it is hard to beat my .270wcf with the 150 grain N.P. . I do try everything that is marketed and they are all compared to the Nosler Partition.
My question is- how does the 6.5 CM compare with a N.P?
Comparing this two rounds any other way just doesn't matter to me, no range finder , turrets, calculators required-point and shoot.
My little old point of view.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,240 Likes: 14
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,240 Likes: 14 |
The 6.5 Creedmoor has its followers and I am happy for them, but I guarantee anyone hunting the rest of their life with the 6.5 won’t kill as much game with that cartridge as I have without it...
Interesting observation. Why is this true, in your own mind? Is it because of the inferiority of the 6.5 Creedmoor, or your legendary status?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,678 Likes: 44
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,678 Likes: 44 |
The 6.5 Creedmoor has its followers and I am happy for them, but I guarantee anyone hunting the rest of their life with the 6.5 won’t kill as much game with that cartridge as I have without it...
Interesting observation. Why is this true, in your own mind? Is it because of the inferiority of the 6.5 Creedmoor, or your legendary status? Interesting observation. Why do you get upset with someone else’s experience? Where did I ever say the 6.5 was inferior? I never have. I will maintain that it isn’t necessary in a field already overloaded with more than adequate game killers. I would also guess, as far as rifle loonies go, I have more than my share, but resist the surge in the shooting world to jump on the Creedmoor bandwagon. To each his own, but you can’t prove me wrong and I guess it bothers you more than it bothers me...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,216 Likes: 26
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,216 Likes: 26 |
I think one reason for American hunters side stepping the 6.5x55 for years was due to the fact that no American firearms manufacturer chambered rifles for it until the 1980s and until then the only available commercial ammunition was Norma and occasionally CIL and/or RWS. Prior to the 1980s, the only rifles that I ever saw chambered in 6.5x55 were surplus Norwegian Krags and Swedish Mausers. The 6.5 Creedmoor is the first commercial 6.5mm bore cartridge to be embraced by American shooters. The 256 Newton, 264 WinMag, 6.5 RemMag, and 260 Rem never captured market share anything like the 6.5 Creedmoor has. Jeff, Good observations about the 6.5x55. One other factor is the throat length in 6.5x55 rifles has varied considerably, just as it has in some other older cartridges that were originally designed around long, round-nosed bullets. 6.5x55 throats were VERY long throughout much of the 20th century, mostly due to the influence of military Mausers and Krags. They started shortening up after World War Two, but weren't very consistent. Present SAAMI and CIP throat lengths are much shorter. This is another reason, aside from action strength, that 6.5x55 factory ammo and handloading data varies so much--and why the 6.5x55 has never become as popular among hunters as later 6.5's. In fact, even in Norway (which co-developed the round with Sweden) the 6.5x55 is nearly as popular among hunters as most Americans believe. I hunted red deer in Norway in 1996, and the hunting mostly involved big drives in mountainous country with LOTS of participants. Since most Norwegians speak excellent English (its apparently a mandatory subject in their schools) I got to talk about hunting and guns quite a bit with probably two dozen hunters. The most popular chambering among their rifles was the .308 Winchester, and in fact one of the several sporting goods stores I visited had a barrel full of a less-expensive model of the Remington 700 apparently made specifically for selling in Europe--all .308's. In fact only one of my hunting companions carried a 6.5x55.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,275
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,275 |
This is my reality with my rifles, there is no killing difference between the two.
.277/150 ABLR/546 bc/3000 mv ..... MOA 11.3 @ 600 yds 26.5 @ 1000 yds
6.5/147ELD/697 bc/2,800 mv ....... MOA 12.2 @ 600 yds 27.1 @ 1000 yds
The 6.5 using 14 grains less powder.
I'll take the 6.5 creedmoor based on those numbers. I've tried to like the 270, but ended up selling the 3 I had. The creed just makes more sense.. This thread is about the 270 and before you know it the 6.5 Creed becomes the topic of discussion. If you mention anything critical of the 6.5 Creedmoor in any 6.5 discussion, you are some sort of malcontent. The 6.5 Creedmoor has its followers and I am happy for them, but I guarantee anyone hunting the rest of their life with the 6.5 won’t kill as much game with that cartridge as I have without it... I could not agree more. Nuff said.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,286 Likes: 15
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,286 Likes: 15 |
The OP was actually this........which if you take time to actualy read it, it's about 6.5's AND the .270. Proceed with the 6.5CMDS posts anyway.
In an article in the current issue of "American Rifleman," Craig Boddington states that, "In my opinion these three similar 6.5mms (6.5x55, .260 Remington, and 6.5 Creedmoor), despite the magical properties currently attributed to them, do not equal the 96-year-old .270 Winchester as a hunting cartridge."
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,144 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,144 Likes: 6 |
I think that a factor that drives discussions about such whizbangs as the 6.5CM, .270, fast twist high velocity .22's, et al, is the gun press (wherein most of the prominent writers live out in wide open fly-over states) who enjoy long range shooting opportunities on a regular basis- and write about them. Add to that the gun readers who revel in those writings and fantasize about joining the ranks of the "long range heroes", and the shooting suppliers (advertisers) who see a way to make yet another buck feeding off of those fantasies.
In the real world of people like myself who live east of the Mississippi who have no access to über long range target shooting/hunting opportunities, the entire world of ELD/VLD bullets and the rifles that handle them wonderfully is superfluous. Yet the local shops are also selling an inordinate amount of that gear to guys who will never be presented with shots much beyond 100 yards and who rarely fire more than a box or two of ammo through their fusils on a yearly basis. Such is the power of fantasy.
I submit that if Creedmoor sales were relegated strictly to the guys who can actually make use of its wondrous charms, and have the opportunities to do so, it would be but an interesting footnote in the annals of shooting. But, the same can be said of many other chamberings down through the years, so our fantasies are nothing new.
I wonder what the next big thing will be? I hope it's equally astounding for that is what helps keep our sport alive.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,678 Likes: 44
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,678 Likes: 44 |
I submit that if Creedmoor sales were relegated strictly to the guys who can actually make use of its wondrous charms, and have the opportunities to do so, it would be but an interesting footnote in the annals of shooting. But, the same can be said of many other chamberings down through the years, so our fantasies are nothing new.
Sorry for not letting this go, but this statement does make the biggest argument for or against a 6.5 Creedmoor...
|
|
|
|
|
76 members (375sunrise, 257robertsimp, 10Glocks, 338reddog, 35, 6mmbrfan, 13 invisible),
843
guests, and
898
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,977
Posts18,519,903
Members74,020
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/63b8KsVp/DSCN4329.jpg)
