Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns ROSS SEYFRIED QUESTION

Quite frankly a 45 ACP/AR versus the 44 Special would be more entertaining...

Im not sure i understand. If both are run at the same pressure with same weight bullet, At 36k psi the 45 colt runs faster, it does so at 50k psi. It will run faster at 30k psi as well, in fact it will run faster at every psi if they are the same. Im not interested in subjective pressure limitations from linebaugh or anyone for that matter. That said, a 44 has a distinct advantage in over the shelf ammo and that may be good enough for most. Advantage 44. When ruger only loads are compared from boutique manufacturers, they run basically even. Look at doubletaps barnes loads for the best apples to apples comparison. When loaded there theyre even. When loaded up to potential, the edge goes to the 45 colt. The best bullets go to the 45 colt just because of the fact the 454 exists and the bullets made to take that beating are made tougher than 44 mag bullets. The 45 swift aframes and barnes are just thicker and tougher. So if ya load those and run to maximum then i give the edge to the 45 colt but id never do that because the 454 does exist and ill just use that if thats the road im traveling as it outpaces the 45 colt by as much as the 45 will outpace the 44. That said id never use the bullets ross used in the 44 mag or the 45 colt with the 44 mag pointy small meplated hardcasts being particularly worthless.

The 44 is my favorite caliber but it will not out do the 45, Ross knew this then & it's still true today. Use all the "apple" comparisons you want, then call Ross Seyfried & tell him he's wrong, he would love to hear from you.

Dick

Does anyone have any evidence, outside of Alaska and Africa where there is a difference in killing ability that made much difference?

Seyfried is the gunwriter I respect the most. I don't have a "beef" with Seyfried or Linebaugh. What they wrote, with regards to .44Mag and .45Colt comparisons is simply outdated. Things have changed significantly in the +30yrs since they wrote that stuff but no one seems to have noticed. The problem is that MANY opinions are based on what they wrote. Mine used to be as well. Hell, I grew up reading Seyfried and Taffin, starting as a 12yr old who bought his first gun magazines in 1986. So I literally grew up believing all the same stuff about the .45Colt. "Same/better performance at less pressure", it slings heavier bullets, less recoil and all that. I started out with the .44Mag because I was stuck with factory ammo. When I finally did get my first Ruger .45 and fired that first shot of "Ruger only" handloads, I detected the faint smell of bullshit. Sure, it performed great but the notion of less recoil and muzzle blast was instantly deflated. No matter, I went on enjoying both cartridges and had my first custom .45Colt built about 20yrs ago.

Then Hodgdon published their heavy bullet data for the .44Mag. I studied it intently and realized that it actually conflicted with what so many believed, myself included. I also knew that handloading data is developed in test barrels and that their results are often not congruent with the real world of real sixguns. So I bought a chronograph and ordered every bullet in Hodgdon's data for BOTH cartridges to see for myself. I had unknowingly had the perfect pair of sixguns built for this test. A Bisley Vaquero with S&W-style adjustable sights and a Super Blackhawk converted to Bisley, both 4 5/8" and both built by David Clements, so the guns were as close as possible. I compared Hodgdon's data to that provided by Linebaugh and others to be sure I was going to use top loads for both cartridges. The results were clear, even if some do not want to accept it. The .44Mag retained a 50-100fps advantage across the board, with all bullet weights. From 300gr to 355/360gr.

Then I started to hear the crap about bullet diameter and always conceded on that point. Until Whitworth asked me to write the piece on this very subject for his latest book. It was in researching for this that I found that meplat diameter is not consistent among commercial bullets. That despite the consistent overall bullet diameters, meplats were almost always the same between .44 and .45 LFN's. WFN's were all over the place. Some were the same. Some were as much as .015" larger for the .45, some only .005" larger. In penetration testing, the .44 consistently out-penetrated the .45Colt. Not by enough to matter but a measurable difference. My SIMTEST results were confirmed in wet newsprint by Michael McCourry of B&M cartridge fame. The Beartooth 330gr .44 LFN beat them all.

I've never detected a bit of difference in recoil with comparable loads, in nearly identical guns. It's a strange thing that pressure is not part of any formula that calculates recoil. However, powder mass is and for this reason, the .45 will always calculate higher. To me the recoil aspect is wishful thinking more than anything. As is the idea that operating at 8000psi less pressure is actually meaningful.

Linebaugh's pressure limitations are not subjective. They are actually quite scientific but they are specific to six-shot large frame single actions. He found out at what point BOTH guns have catastrophic failures (~60 and ~80,000psi) and the accepted maximums allow for a 100% safety margin. If you want to eat into it by running them at the same pressure, you're on your own.

The Redhawk and Super Redhawk are stronger guns and that is why both cartridges are loaded to 50,000psi in them. Where the .45 pulls away from the .44, due to its greater case capacity. This should not be a surprise.

Contrary to popular opinion, I am unemotional about this. I had no hidden agenda. Actually, I love them both cartridges and didn't set forth to prove anything one way or another. I was looking for the truth and IMHO, I found it. That there is not a lick of practical difference between the two. Certainly nothing that is worth arguing over. Now, if anyone here has data from actual testing that conflicts with my findings, please offer it up. Because so far all I've EVER heard are unsupported opinions because I gored someone's sacred goat. The Hodgdon and Linebaugh data is all right there. I didn't make this stuff up.

Since Ross Seyfried keeps getting mentioned and Dick referenced Handloader #205 in our recent PM exchange as if I had never read it, I retrieved my copy and read it again. The comical part of this is that he begins by describing his pre-conceived notions about the .45Colt and how Linebaugh was contradicting what he "knew" about it from 20yrs prior. Things he learned from reading Elmer Keith, particularly regarding the weak case myth. That Linebaugh effectively challenged his existing beliefs and changed his mind. With data. That sounds vaguely familiar. Except I didn't have to develop this .44 data, Hodgdon did that. All I did was follow directions and write about the results.

Nowhere does it list specific .44 bullets or loads. It's mostly about the .45Colt and he references Hodgdon data extensively. Mind you, this is Hodgdon #26 that was printed in 1992. So for those of you who have your mind made up about this because of something Seyfried wrote, your belief is based on information that was published the year I graduated high school, 27yrs ago. He references 300gr at 1300fps loads in both chamberings and then points out the pressure difference. I don't have Hodgdon #26 but just ordered it from Ebay. I'm fairly certain that the 300gr load he references is either jacketed or an outdated cast bullet. Long before they developed the current heavy bullet data. From there he goes on to a 325gr LFN at 1275fps in a 7½" .45. My testing confirms this with 1240fps out of my 4 5/8" Ruger. The .44Mag did 1280fps with a 320gr. In his table, Seyfried references a 350gr at 1050fps out of the .45Colt. Using the Hodgdon data, I tested the 360gr at 1060fps. In the same Hodgdon data, the .44Mag managed a 355gr WLN at 1130fps. Apparently using better bullets out of the .44 makes quite the difference.

Even when we move up to 50,000psi loads, things are interesting. Seyfried's table shows a 360gr over 1400fps. We know that both Pearce's data and the Buffalo Bore 340gr +P+ are well over 1400fps. Ironically enough this is the same velocity rating as their 360gr .454 load. Pearce shows a 360gr .45 at 1450fps and a 340gr .44 at 1405fps. I'm about to start testing the 355gr WLN loaded long and heavy in a long cylinder Ruger .44Mag and expect to see similar results.

Does anyone have any actual data to contradict this?

Here's a simplified overview of the current Hodgdon data.

Funny thing is, dick casull did that with a 45 colt decades earlier but i digress.

Glock doesn't make one in that caliber.

Who said anything about a GLOCK?

Your data is the point in its entirety.


Post the pressures of the Hodgdon data, load the 45 to the same SPEEDS on the chronograph, viola....its going to be greater pressure than Hodgdon lists, but it will always be LESS than the 44's 38-39,000 CUP, but right in the 32,000 CUP area of safety Brian Pearce has loaded at, numerous times, and right in line with Buffalo Bore and specialty loads not designated for the Redhawk.

So? What does that matter? What does less pressure gain you?

At 45,000psi. And??? It's comical how pressure is used as an argument, as long as it fits the narrative.

It's cool, I'm about to find out what the 405gr does in the .44Mag, loaded long and to high pressure.

Here's their 330gr .44 load that is right at the original industry maximum for the cartridge of 43,500CUP. Running 160fps over that possible in a six-shot .45.

https://www.garrettcartridges.com/44hammerheadplusp.html

The problem is and was, folks comparing optimized .45 loads to run-of-the-mill, old tech .44 loads. In reality, the two are ballistic twins, differing only slightly here and there. What the .44 does with more pressure, the .45 does with more powder. Where the .44 penetrates deeper, the .45 has a slightly larger meplat (sometimes). The difference is a wash.

Exactly what Seyfried has stated "you get the horsepower, without the pressure".

He places frontal area above differences in speed. He favors the 44 Special over the 41, for the same exact reasons; that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with him, but he has a pretty good handle on the large bore revolvers over most people.

That's entirely subjective of whether it does or doesn't matter to you. It obviously doesn't for you and no one is going to make you care, just like you're probably not going to get Ross to concede his findings on the matter....

Since Garrett was brought up, let's look at their 365gr .45Colt load. Now this one is 35,000psi, so nearly the same pressure as the .44Mag loads that hover around 38,000CUP.

Garrett 365gr .45 = 1250fps in a 7.5" Ruger - 35,000psi
Handloaded 355gr .44 = 1245fps in a 7.5" Ruger - 38,000CUP.

Except the 355gr .44 has a larger meplat, 335" vs .340".

Do you really want to argue that there is some invisible, magic at work that somehow makes the .45 better? I don't and I probably have more .45's than most diehard .45 fans.

I read that as 25 fps, not 160, and last time I checked, the Redhawk was a 6 shot 45.

Talk about narratives....

Without a tangible benefit, it's an empty point.

Seyfried has to concede nothing. He wrote of the facts as he had them, when he had them. The concession comes today, that some folks might have to accept that things are not as they were. Just as Seyfried did with his encounter with Linebaugh. These things evolve.

In the field and especially with cast bullets, velocity is overrated but in an academic discussion, it is a measure of "performance". Frontal area, or more specifically, meplat diameter is the operative dimension. Here we see it is also not as black & white as presumed. As I said, from some casters, LFN's are the same, with other examples the difference is as small as .005". You have to look at individual bullets.

330gr Hammerhead at 1400fps versus a 325gr LFN at 1240fps out of the .45. Point being that the Hammerhead is technically a standard pressure .44Mag load.

Standard pressure, but oddly recommended ONLY in the same guns as the 45....or did you even bother to look at your own links?

Due to LENGTH. There are no "Ruger only" (~32,000psi) .45 loads that are loaded long to take advantage of the Redhawk's cylinder for direct comparison. Those are all also 45-55,000psi.

Does it look like there's really enough difference to argue about?