Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Do you call BS or is this likely?

I have a 225 Winchester that I am getting ready to load for. This is not a Winchester, but rather a Savage model 340. I figured this should make a neat varmint gun. Most times when you read articles concerning the 225 winchester, they are based off a model 70. There have been several people who have questioned the strength of the 340 action. I was one who believed that had the action been unsafe, Savage would not have produced it. Some say the reason that Savage didn't produce them long was due to the fact that they realized that they were pushing it with those pressure levels. I thought it was more due to the fact that the 22-250 came along and pretty much killed the 225. Anyway, there are very few places that I know of that I can actually research the action strength of the 340. When you look at loads developed for the 225 Winchester, I found 2 sources with pressure data. Hodgdon shows pressure levels up to 50,000 CUP and accurate shows up to 60,000 PSI. This does seem high for the gun but I don't really know.

Here is the question I have concerning if this is BS. I was researching on the internet, (not sure where else), and stumbled across an interesting post in another forum. I can't remember what the forum was, but they were discussing the 225 specifically in the model 340. One poster claimed that at full pressure the action actually flexed rather severely. His case was that new brass shot fine and grouped well, but he could never get the 2nd firing of his brass to group anywhere near as accurate as first time. When he inspected his brass, he said it was bent and no amount of resizing could get it out. His claim was that the action flexed violently enough to bend the brass. Now if it were just one guy, I would probably have written him off as a bit loony, but there was another owner that said he noticed the exact same thing in his model 340 as well, and for that reason he shot some pretty low pressure stuff. BS or likely?
Some will say just go and test it yourself. The problem is that 225 brass is rather rare and expensive, and I only have 50 or so pieces to load. I do not relish the thought of ruining brass in order to test it, plus if the action is flexing to that extent it seems like I am sitting on a time bomb.

I did think of running lower pressure, and I will try that. In Hodgdon data, they show one powder that produces lower pressure and that is H414. That is with a 40 grain bullet. It shows pressures at 40-43k CUP instead of the normal 45-50k CUP. But if that powder does not work, (it does seem pretty slow) all the others listed are at the higher pressure levels. I am just not sure what to think, so I would like some input please.

Throw the steaming pile of schit off a fhuqking cliff and never look back.

Hint...………………….

I don't know, but your idea sounds like a good one. Question is, if the stories are true, will the lighter loads do the same thing? Gonna cost you just a bit to find out, I suppose. Good luck.

Back in the 60s, one of those in .222 was the main choice of a guy I knew that liked hunting "under the lights", so to speak.

That's certainly an option as well.

I would try it yourself. Lyman 50th edition has load info for the .225 Winchester and Quality Cartridge makes the brass.

http://www.qual-cart.com/22%20cal.htm

What other cartridges were they chambered for in similar case head size and pressures?

If I was really interested as you are.... I would try it with 2 (two) cases. See how many Xs they will last.

Jerry

I don't buy the cases "bending" IMO the person has no clue as to what they are doing.

i have had and used the 340 for 40 years in one chambering or the other . have never had a .225 but have had many in 222 and 30-30.
have fired uncounted rounds of 222 at 48k cup with no sign of action flexing.

if you want to throw one off a cliff do it in my direction.

I would keep bolt thrust in line with the .30-30 the rifle was designed for. Since the .30-30 and the .225win have the same base diameter, I'd stick with the .30-30's SAAMI max pressure of 42 KPSI.

I'm in this boat.

Jerry

[/b]I found the quote I was referring to.[b] Original question was as follows:
Originally Posted by tanker
I have just picked up a savage 340 in .30-30. I'm fairly certain the action will take more pressure than a lever gun and I should be able to use pointed bullets. I know they chambered this rifle in .223 and .225 win., both of these are loaded to 50,000 plus pressures. Anyone have any load data expressly for this rifle?
The 340 action can live pretty happy with a .223 sized head at 50K or a .30-30 sized head at 40K.


This was the response:

The .225Win. was a mistake...Savage pulled that one pretty quickly. Still have a 340V in the gun safe, and I can testify that it was a mistake to chamber that round in the 340 action. Best measure has the bolt face and bore nearly square...but at 50K, the cases that eject have out of square case heads...the action evidently flexes latteraly. Once "cocked" they stay that way, no amount of sizing is going to un-cock them.

This drove me nuts at first. New brass...loads shoots great...same load in once-fired cases shoots an improved pattern. Same powder, bullets, primers, etc...but once fired at full pressure, cases never did shoot well again.

Run it at .219zipper pressure (estimated) and they shoot fine, reload fine, and the case heads stay sqyare with the body. Evidently, it takes a specific amount of pressure to flex that action to the point the case takes on the flexed shape.

Go for it if you like...but if you find you can't duplicate your loads with once fired brass, you'll know where you might look.

Just to mention...there is one locking lug on that action. The bolt handle isn't a decnt safety lug (and isn't made to be one). As case head size increases, the amount of pressue to the bolt also increases (bolt thrust)...so a small case (like the .223) can run at 50K without a problem...make it a big case (like the .30-30 or .225) and there just may be a problem.

I wouldn't worry so much about the gun truing into a grenade...but I would worry about that single locking lug's health, and the possibility of beating a recess in the reciever as that thrust is transmitted to the action.
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Sounds harsh...I actaully like the ugly 340. I just don't press them very hard. As to ultimate strength, believe a Marlin lever gun is stronger...flexible, but so is the 340.

first off the cases are enclosed in the chamber so to follow his thought the barrel and action are flexing sideways.
that dog don't hunt.

That's what I did when I put you on ignore.
I wish other people wouldn't quote you.

Just looking at the respective pressures of the .30-30 and .225 suggests that there is likely to be trouble though. Moving to a cartridge with a 50% increase in bolt thrust over what the action was designed for is not trivial.

Cryper,

It's your Imagination,simply Pretend with it as you MUST. Congratulations?!?

You Whining CLUELESS Fhuqks are a hoot!

Hint...………………….

The 340 was sold as a very inexpensive entry level rifle in its day and it has been surpassed by newer entry level rifles that are more accurate, have better triggers and designed to handle high-pressure loads better. More than likely someone out there who collects Savage 340's and an odd caliber like that in one should attract a buyer. I would sell it to someone like that and use the funds to purchase one of the newer entry level rifles like the Ruger American or something along that line. I know that they are not available in 225 Win but the 22/250 will do everything the 225 Win does and with a lot less worry. A 22/250 or 223 will make your life easier, cheaper, and possibly even safer.

drover

An 18" Krunchenticker in 223,will simply fhuqking crush an OEM 225,upon any receiver...and especially the piece of fhuqking schit cited.

Hint...………………………..

My first hunting rifle was a Savage 340 in 30-30. Firing it was painful as it had awful stock design. But even with factory loadings, it never felt like it was going to hold up long. In other words, these weren't Savages' proudest achievement and pushing it with modern loads is just asking for trouble or headaches, IMO.

And the bent brass story and flexing action? Absolute nonsense and anyone who thinks that way probably shouldn't be around rifles.....

Bob

As noted previously, the 340 series of bolt action rifles chambered in 22 Hornet, 222, 223, 225, and 30-30 were inexpensive entry-level hunting rifles. There are 3 things about the design that I don't care for:

1. The single locking lug raises the questions of strength/safety and asymmetric bolt thrust/accuracy.
2. The split receiver bridge requires the shooter to use a side-mount.in order to install a scope.
3. The triggers aren't particularly crisp.

I've always thought that the 340 action is probably just marginally strong enough for the 225, but that is a personal bias that isn't based on any empirical data. I've owned a few 340s in 225, but never shot any of them and sold them to Savage collectors. I can buy into the action flexing asymmetrically because of the single locking lug design, but not the barrel flexing such that the fired case in the chamber would be in any shape other than that of the chamber itself and since chamber reamers cut symmetric holes, the bent case story sounds like BS.

If you're looking for a rifle to shoot, there are lots of inexpensive 223s and 22-250s out there that will fire cheaper and easier to find ammo. I can't remember the last time I saw a box of 225 factory ammo on a dealer's shelf and component brass usually costs around $1 case when you can find it.

My advise is to avoid the 340 in 225, but if you choose not to avoid that combination, proceed with yellow light caution.