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Originally Posted by nighthawk
No matter how many times and ways I say nobody in the Church worships the pope and to do so would get you excommunicated instantly you insist otherwise. I give up.

The post immediately above this one is rhetorical blather.


I watched as pope Benedict on tv called on the believers of Christ to worship the Church.

The church is the people who are believers and we are to worship Him, not a church.


Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.

A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.

"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".

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In all honesty..........I was raised Catholic, though I’m pretty much in the camp of disliking all organized religion now, and you have literally invested more time and thought on the Pope than I did the first 18 years of my life.
The Catholics I grew up around (northern NH folk) didn’t really seem too worried about him one way or the other. It was a mill town, though.........,,


�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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Systematized biblical truth right here on the sufficiency of Scripture:

The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word: and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed. " - Westminster Confession of Faith 1.6

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Originally Posted by jaguartx
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Christ is Lord. He can get people to the Father who died worshipping cats and building pyramids Able or Noah or his kids before Jesus Christ was ever born.


You think Able or Noah or Abraham went to hell for not calling on the name of Jesus?


PS. This was not directed at you, Ricky, but to what i consider common modern misconceptions.

For the record, both Abraham and Moses met Jesus face to face. He wasn't yet called Jesus, though. He was called The Angel of the Lord. Abraham met him at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Moses met him in the burning bush. The Bible doesn't specifically say that Abel met Jesus but his brother Cain did. Jesus was/is the visible one in the trinity. When someone in the OT talks to God face to face, that's Jesus.

All of the OT people needed saving, just like us. They were still saved by Jesus' blood even though it didn't happen for another few centuries. Their faith was considered righteousness and saved them by what Jesus would do later.


“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell

It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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The history of the Catholic Church....

A long read but a good read, if you like torture, violence death then this read is for you.
http://kotisatama.net/files/kotisatama/Tekstit_ja_kirjat/foxe.pdf


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Originally Posted by jaguartx
Christ is Lord. He can get people to the Father who died worshipping cats and building pyramids Able or Noah or his kids before Jesus Christ was ever born.


You think Able or Noah or Abraham went to hell for not calling on the name of Jesus?


I’d suggest you read very carefully throughout Hebrews 11. The whole book is about how much better Jesus is than the Old Testament forms and shadows by definition because they were meant to point the people of faith ahead to Christ.

Note that the promise that they looked toward was not received; that promise was Christ and they understood that God was bringing about definitive redemption from sin & death. Moses “considered Christ”. They weren’t worshipping anything but the God of Christ. There are no examples of people promised salvation in the Bible who didn’t look in faith to Christ.

I don’t know who is saved and who isn’t and that’s fine by me; but Scripture is crystal clear that all who are saved in the Bible were saved not by abstract faith but by faith in God’s covenant promise of redemption in Christ. It is the object of faith, not its mere presence as an abstraction that the Bible says confers salvation.

Heb 11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. 20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. 21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.

29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.

32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two,[a] they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
-ESV

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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
I've heard that about Mary, too. However, I was in an RC church and saw a stature of Mary with a bunch of children at her feet, heads bowed, praying to her. The RCC calls her a co-redeemer with Christ. That's pure invention as the Bible says nothing of the kind. She was honored by being the mother of Jesus, but beyond that, she was nothing more than any other believer, saved by Jesus' blood.

Catholics may pray to Mary or any of the saints. Prayers asking them to pray to God for us. There is biblical justification for that. Only God is worshiped. Only Jesus is named as our redeemer.

If Mary is given to us as our spiritual mother (John 19:25-29) why wouldn't you ask for her help?

And if you truly follow Jesus why wouldn't you do good works as He commanded?


The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh

Which explains a lot.
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There is only 1 mediator between man and God.
Jesus, the ONLY one to pray to.
All the others are dead, Jesus is alive.
Good grief


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Believe what you like. The only point is that while Catholics may admire saints they worship only God.


The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh

Which explains a lot.
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My point is praying to “saints” and dead people is a form of spiritualism and that’s the devil.
So who then are you praying to?


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Campfire Kahuna
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Originally Posted by nighthawk
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
I've heard that about Mary, too. However, I was in an RC church and saw a stature of Mary with a bunch of children at her feet, heads bowed, praying to her. The RCC calls her a co-redeemer with Christ. That's pure invention as the Bible says nothing of the kind. She was honored by being the mother of Jesus, but beyond that, she was nothing more than any other believer, saved by Jesus' blood.

Catholics may pray to Mary or any of the saints. Prayers asking them to pray to God for us. There is biblical justification for that. Only God is worshiped. Only Jesus is named as our redeemer.

If Mary is given to us as our spiritual mother (John 19:25-29) why wouldn't you ask for her help?

And if you truly follow Jesus why wouldn't you do good works as He commanded?

Spiritual mother? Jesus merely told John to take his mother, apparently widowed, into his house to care for her after he died. He was doing his duty as a good son. There are questions as to why Jesus didn't place her with one of his younger brothers but possibly it was because none of them were believers at the time.

Besides, talking to the dead is evil:
Deut 18:11 ... or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.
12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD
, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.

God didn't give any church the authority to turn this evil practice into a good one. There is no provision in the Bible for praying to any dead person. We pray to God and God alone.


“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell

It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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