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No kidding. Bombing factories, railroads, depots and cities is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM THE EQUIVALENT OF THE SYSTEMATIC MURDER AND GASSING OF CIVILIANS. One is war and one is cold blooded murder.

I wonder if those from the greatest generation that liberated those camps are being called liars for recounting what they saw?

I was went to Dachau, do the revisionists think that was staged or am I lying about what I saw?

If you like to read:

https://www.unz.com/proberts/the-lies-about-world-war-ii/

World War II was initiated by the British and French declaration of war on Germany, not by a surprise blitzkrieg from Germany. The utter rout and collapse of the British and French armies was the result of Britain declaring a war for which Britain was unprepared to fight and of the foolish French trapped by a treaty with the British, who quickly deserted their French ally, leaving France at Germany’s mercy.

Germany’s mercy was substantial. Hitler left a large part of France and the French colonies unoccupied and secure from war under a semi-independent government under Petain. For his service in protecting a semblance of French independence, Petain was sentenced to death by Charles de Gaulle after the war for collaboration with Germany, an unjust charge.

In Britain, Churchill was out of power. He figured a war would put him back in power. No Britisher could match Churchill’s rhetoric and orations. Or determination. Churchill desired power, and he wanted to reproduce the amazing military feats of his distinguished ancestor, the Duke of Marlborough, whose biography Churchill was writing and who defeated after years of military struggle France’s powerful Sun King, Louis XIV, the ruler of Europe.

In contrast to the British aristocrat, Hitler was a man of the people. He acted for the German people. The Versailles Treaty had dismembered Germany. Parts of Germany were confiscated and given to France, Belgium, Denmark, Poland, and Czechoslovakia. As Germany had not actually lost the war, being the occupiers of foreign territory when Germany agreed to a deceptive armistice, the loss of approximately 7 million German people to Poland and Czechoslovakia, where Germans were abused, was not considered a fair outcome.

I’m going to back out of this discussion now because I don’t have the patience for hyperbole and stupidity. I’ve read volumes and nowhere was it ever suggested that torture was needed elicit the truth from the Germans, they had no reason to lie, they received no leniency for lying nor were they ashamed of what they’d done. Ohlendorf spoke about smashing babies against light poles and told his men he didn’t want them doing that, instead he told them to shoot the baby in the mother’s arms thereby getting a twofer while saving ammo.

Trying to draw a moral equivalence between bombing cities that had military objectives and where civilians die to the systematic extermination of an entire group of people by barbaric methods is as hollow and empty as the usual assertions by the revisionists.

There are similar stories in this documentary. The SS would tell them to shoot the mom's first so they didn't have to see their kids die. Then shoot the kid.

This is testimony from the people that did it. Not witnesses.

What Seafire said previously was correct, the US was the one with the "don't hurt the civilian ideals", and stuck to those ideals perhaps to a fault. The British pushed the civilian targeting and they did light Dresden up.

This is a very interesting thread.

The interwar period had much to do with all the events following.

Look, Curtis LeMay admitted that if somehow the US had managed to lose the war, he would have been prosecuted for war crimes. But, we won so he wasn’t. That really isn’t a moral judgment on LeMay or the bombing campaign just to say that moral judgments go both ways and morality is in the eye of the beholder.

Have you done much reading about how the German women were treated by the Russians after the war?

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/may/01/news.features11

The history of Russia itself is nothing but the savagery of war, the country has suffered from the losses of all so many wars, the continual death and destruction of generation after generation of the best of your youth and the depravity and poverty that wars have taken a huge toll on the Russian people, and there is no end in sight for their youth, even today.

jimy: Please explain to me what Stalin's execution of 3.3 million Russians and the 6 million he killed during the Famine of 1932-1933 has to do with the "savagery of war"?

No, you ain't lying. Just too stupid to understand the real story according to a few KOOKS we have here on the 'Fire.
The ones who claim that our WWII vets were too stupid to understand that they were the tools of the Jewish World Conspiracy.

Like our KOTY who has claimed that Japanese torturing Allied soldiers was no worse than CIA waterboarding.
Or that the Holocaust never happened.

one of the things brought out is that native populations in various countries were more than willing to assist or preform the actual work for the germans in exterminating jewish populations.
I am not jewish, but there are distant jewish connections in my polygot family . Last year i came across a picture of a train arriving at auschwitz, and the people being separated. One of the people in that picture was a lucy hershkowitz. Hershkowitz being the paternal name of my half sister who just passed away. A whole bunch of hershkowitz's died at auschwitz in the summer of 1944. Auschwitz is only about 70km north of my grandmothers village in northern slovakia. a lot of people died in addition to jews. Back in the 80's i got a letter from the bosnia area of the former yugoslavia from a cousin of my mother. A woman my mother hadn't seen since around 1914. She was a old woman at the time of the letter wanting help with a little money to buy a proper tombstone for her, husband and children. Husband and sons had been killed during the war.
That is the slovak side. Now then there is the german, with a name that traces back generations in germany, and was active in the national socialist party prior to the war. My research has pulled out a lot of high ranking nazi's. And i have had sit down discussions with old men, that at one time were in the SS, and in eastern europe during the war. At the time i was talking to them, they were gentle old men on the surface. As a youth in germany, i don't know and on the eastern front, i don't know. what i rassle with is when the russians came into germany on their march to berline they crossed westphalia and pomerania, the area that my german side lived in for at least eight generations after scotland. I shudder to think what they faced, paybacks are a bitch. But then i think what these groups did in central europe and russia, and understand motivation for what they did when their turn came going into germany. The one thing i DO know is the ordinary human being usually is the one that suffers.
And has far as harris and the british bombing, it is ironic the ties of the british royal family to germany and for that matter to the czar.

Uh, the Germans were obliterating civilians (Roterdam & Warsaw) ring a bell) Wayyyy before. Honestly, a "pledge"? source? And I suppose there was a "pledge" not to torpedo civilian ships too? GMAFB.

people kind of forget that, don't they?

WW1 ended and everybody involved decided to take big chunks of Germany and keep them,...including the German citizens who lived in them. They also demanded that Germany pay reparations to the extent that what was left of Germany was economically destroyed. Less than a generation later Germany built a war machine and started getting some payback. Churchill decided to stick his nose in it and got England messed up too. End of that empire!

That's it in a short paragraph.

The Axis powers should be eternally grateful that we were as merciful as we were.

If France had just gone home and went about their business after WW1, there would have never been a WW2. But they never could leave well enough alone. So America ended up bailing their ass out after Germany just walked in their front door. France couldn't leave well enough alone in Vietnam, either. For whatever reason, after the Vietnamese sent France packing, America decided that it needed to give Vietnam a try.

The French are trouble.

Poland never did like Germany so they got in line after WW1 to take a piece of the place. For their trouble, they ended up under the thumb of the Soviet Union for several decades after WW2.

That was smart!

And if Germany invaded east and nobody else nobody would have gave a fugk.

Hell,...Great Britain built its empire by sailing around the world and conquering cultures that barely had the means to fight back. Basically, they were global bullies.

It got too big for its britches when Churchill decided to involve England in Germany's squabble,...had to beg weapons from America.

Well, you know the rationale behind our bombing of civilians was pretty much the same as behind 9/11.

In both cases, someone involved in a war or what they consider to be a war bombs a civilian target in the theory that the civilians support a government that promulgates what you consider to be objectionable policies or violence towards people or things you support.

Uhh, Germany did invade east and Britain and France declared war on them as a result.