Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting 500-yard shots at ELK.

Apperantly you have not seen it a hundred times are for that matter not even once.
An Elk hit in the Liver ain't going far.......

If it was an elk and I missed by 3� it would be one very DEAD elk. It might still be on its feet and it might go a few yards, just as they can with a perfectly placed shot, but it wouldn�t go far.

I the 25 years I have been hunting Colorado elk I have never had to track one that I shot and none have gone more than 50 yards. To suggest you know what would happen if I missed my point of aim by 3�, and to state that the necessary outcome �WOULD HAVE RESULTED IN A TRAGIC LOSS OF A FINE ANIMAL � is supposition and arrogant self-delusion at its finest.

The fact of the matter is that many people use different points of aim for elk, including the shoulder, lungs, heart, neck and even the head. While I have never seen a head shot on an elk, I have seen all the others work quite well. My own elk have fallen to shots from the shoulder to the heart. Last time I checked that distance is considerably greater than 3�.

Never mind that if a shot is only off 3� at 500 yards it is closer to being on target than a great many bullets that kill elk at 100 yards.

You guys seem to be magicians so far as I can tell. I've not liver-shot elk - worked hard to avoid that calamity, but I have liver shot whitetails twice. One when several hundred yards w/o being pushed and the other went close to 3/4 mile, cross a creek down a cliff, and on and on. Got her in the end, but I would NEVER consider a liver shot animal - well shot.

Brent

Clarification: if you are aiming for a behind the shoulder heart shot, and you miss by 3" to the rear (or maybe 4"), you can get a livershot elk, and livershot elk DO NOT reliably pile up after 20 yards. They can travel the blackest, steepest, longest journey imaginable for a mortally wounded animal. I don't imagine 500 yard hunters are taking heart shots, but you wouldn't know from listening to this site. Nice ethics conversation, however. I allays advocate shooting through the shoulder, and get grief from the heart shooting crowd. Is it possible that the heart shooters turn to shoulder shooters at some invisible range threshold?

Must be extra tuff livers where you guys hunt I have never seen any animal go very far with thier liver destroyed,all that I have seen bleed out rather quickly..........

Thee recent posts about shot placement are straying pretty far from the topic of 500yd shots, but it is a good question and deserves a thread.

Whats wrong with a 500 yard heart shot?

Oh yeah, last bow shot in the liver was about 1996. Buck went out around, came back by and laid down about 10 yards out and less than a minute was dead. Not much different than lungs IMHO.

Last gun liver shot was 2 times last yaer. One was the only angle I had. Did exit one lung. Mad dash about 40 yards and dead. Do not know the time table as I packed my backpack etc.... before getting up to look.
Other one was movign, a cull I did NOT want to get away, 13 inch spikes at 3.5 years old WT. He was walking fast and about to dissapear, the shot was about 6 inches behind the front leg. Horrible old X bullet.... Made a loop about 40 yards, fell under a cedar. Raised his head one time adn was dead inside a minute again.

I defer though, elk may be much tougher.

Will I argue that liver is not the best place? Nope I agree, but it sure kills quick from what i've seen. Though a few times the blood trail is a bit thin and the deer will run a couple hundred yards. Not any different than some heart shots though too.

Jeff

Ho jeez! What can go wrong? At 500 yards... wind, animal movement, operator error... with an MOA rifle, if that animal moves even a few inches you could be out of the vitals. Or if you misjudge the wind... or the distance (but you'd be nuts to even try that shot without a rangefinder).

I'm too new to the forum to get in a fight yet! :-) I will say, the last argument I got into over this subject led me to set up a longer-range practice course with steel plates at 250, 340, 410, and 500 yards. I can pelt the 340 all day long, but can only hit the 410 about half the time. So, there's a lot that happens between 340 and 410 yards, much less between 300 and 500!

I'd feel confident about shooting an elk out to 350 yards, based on my experience. With my hunting zero, and my rifles and scopes*, that means holding one "vitals" high. I can do that. Beyond that, holdover gets pretty sketchy. Anyone with serious aspirations beyond 350, 400 yards needs to have a target-style scope, a rangefinder, and needs to practice a BUNCH under all kinds of different conditions. If you practice enough and get your gear set up properly then it may be possible to shoot out to 500 yards- but so far is hasn't been, for me. But that's me.

*my long-range screwaround guns are a .338 Win with 225-gn Accubonds, a 30-06 with 165-gn Accubonds, and a 7mm-08 with 140-gn Ballistic Tips. All of them have Vari-X III 2.5x8's on them and are zeroed an inch high at 100 yards, except the 338 which is 1.5 inches high at 100 yards. The 338 and '06 have Jewell triggers. I have ordered a DPMS 308-LR that I intend to set up as a dedicated long-range benchrest target rifle...

-jeff

FWIW, not that it'll change anything.....or anyones opinion....

I have not shot at 600 yards in over a year. I taught a class on 600 yard prone on Sunday.

I had 2 students to coach as shooters after my class was over. Never knew them. Did not know their guns.

I had mirage to look at, and my wind speed meter. Angle was easy to quickly find. I looked at my wind charts and the first shot from each shooter was within 6 inches of center wind wise on each first shot.(they did not have it exact on vertical but I can't help that)

That says that anyone with enough experience can do a 500 yard shot pretty easy.

And that was with 223 AR15s, one with 80s the other with 75s which require about 1.5 times the wind of the 80s.... so it was different wind calls each time for the first shot. Wind was not bad though, it was variable from about 9-11 oclock and from 2-12 mph.

The key here is don't do it if you are not capable.

Jeff

I see that you're taking the position that because you can't do it reliably then no one else can either. You must believe that your skills are at the pinnicle and no one can possiably be better at long range shooting than you. Just another person that wants to impose thier limitations on others.........

Jeff,
Had a similar experience A little over a week ago. I was at the range and I had to re-sight my XP in since I had finally got a set of lower rings in. Bore-sighted @ 100 and got it about 1.5" high then went to the 200 yd target and hastily got it zeroed (I do my real zeroing @ 600 yards). There was a dad with his two sons at theplinking range and I couldn't shoot at 600 till they were done so I put up the 600 yard target and made a 2" square bull with a Sharpie (paper itself has light blue 1' squares) and then and visisting with them while they finished shooting. The had a rem model 7 in 7-08 and they were also shooting some neat European (I think) in-line BP rifle. They kept asking me if I wanted to shoot it and i politely declined. After a period of time they asked again and I said yes, on the condition that each of them would shoot my XP-100 @ 600 yards. They said they had never shot at anything that far away and had never shot a specialty handgun of any kind. The boys were 11 & 15 years old.
We moved back to 600 and I realized like a goof I had left my Kestrel at home , so I was just going to guess the wind.
I ran 11 MOA for elevation and 1/2 MOA for wind and sent three down range. we got in and drove down to see their impacts and then went back and after some individual coaching, each fired one shot. All had a good time. My three shots are circled.

http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/xphunter_2006/?action=view&current=IMG_0646.jpg

http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/xphunter_2006/?action=view&current=IMG_0653.jpg

XP

Thats far from bad shooting, considering it was re-zeroing and a quick three to verify.

Not bad at all for their first shots eitehr!! I think you did something really good there.

And considering that a shot in the field will take more time, more care etc.... I"m thinking you have a solid .4-.3 moa pistol there at a real 600 yards. Nothing to sneeze at for sure. Heck I've seen more than one wally world shooter have a larger group at 100.

Jeff

I let the boys have the target and told them I will give them some pics when I get them developed.
Dad is considering his first XP-100 as we speak
This XP is fun to shoot and I really want to see how tight of a group I can get @ 600 and @ 1k with it with my hunting load-which BTW is the only one I use.

I quoted my whole post so you could re-read it. Here's the pertinant part, to save you some time:

"Anyone with serious aspirations beyond 350, 400 yards needs to have a target-style scope, a rangefinder, and needs to practice a BUNCH under all kinds of different conditions. If you practice enough and get your gear set up properly then it may be possible to shoot out to 500 yards- but so far is hasn't been, for me. But that's me."

You have a problem with THAT!?

-jeff

With the correct equipment and practice makes a 500 yard shot quite easy and longer is not out of the question.........

Check this out ;

http://precisionlongrangehunter.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7011083821/m/9911043131

When it comes down to long range shooting. Most people have never been in that situation nor have they the experience to do such a shot. Bullet construction has changed a lot over the years, they tend to fly better, hit harder, expand better and retain more energy than in the past. Plus with handloading and the improvement of factory ammo. A 500 yard shot is very doable and also ethical with the right setup.
WhenI shoot, I wither sit behind a tripod and shoot off of it or I get prone and shoot off a solid rest like a pack or a rock even a low ht. bipod. If you know the yards and your rifle then there is nothing unethical about a 500 yard shot. If you were using a cheap round, a low magn. scope, no range finder, and just spitting lead at will, thats where it becomes unethical. however most people that take game at those ranges are prepared for the shot and use good equipment.
If you know what your limits are, don't judge others that have greater limits than yours. I am maxed out currently at 300/400 yards with my 7 mag, because it is new to me. A friend of mine has had his for a long time and shoots 600 yards at times. I am not going to talk crap about him for doing so. I think its great he can shoot 600 yards and ethically kill game. I can't, but as I learn my gun more and more, my limit increases. I am hoping to be able to shoot 500 by this fall.

Not matter what we all say here or discuss, people that don't shoot long range will never understand the long range hunter. In the same manner a long range hunter will never be able to convince a non-long range hunter of the ability to shoot long range. What it comes down to is one has to do it or see it to believe it.
Nice conversation and a lot of opinions. Mine will always be long range is ethical as long as you are ready for it and have the proper equipment.

Kique

Good thoughts, even though I quoted only part of it.
I can't agree more about the seeing and then actually doing it as far as realizing the possibility.

Jeff

I think one word in your post hits a nerve. May. It isn't that it may be possible. It is possible and actually very easy given enough range time.

Jeff

Seems reasonable to me. One or two liver shot elk not makin' it to the deep, steep, an' dark certainly disproves years of seein' 12-18 elk die ever year, trackin' some by flashlight, an' losin' a few. Perfectly reasonable...right.

A friend of mine is a long-range shooter that I have tremendous respect for. He has hunted elk 35-40 years and practiced long range shooting for at least 10 years. He has a gun he set up especially for these long-range shots. He is one of those rare individuals who is both an excellent long-range shot and an excellent elk hunter. I believe there are few elk hunters in any Western state with his ability.

This guy is a member of our local shooting club and spends his time on the long distance range. He was the one who talked me into joining the club and I got my first experience at shooting the manhole cover at 800 yards. From that practice I became confident in shooting longer ranges and that same year I shot my antelope at 390yds. I knew that I would shoot that antelope through the heart before I pulled the trigger. Would I try that on an elk? No way! The notion often repeated here that others are unable to hunt at long ranges because they lack the skills is absurd. I am sure that there are many others like me who choose not to shoot elk at these distances, not because they can�t, but because they have learned to approach elk. It almost seems a little unfair taking that long shot even if its a checkmate, not my style. I�m down with the fair chase idea. I believe in my ability to get close and that an elk should have to make a mistake if it�s going to suffer the ultimate consequence. There are just so many things that can go with a long shot wrong when the quarry is an elk.

Unfortunately this friend that I speak of shot an elk last season but failed to recover it. Every year this fellow kills an elk at 500+ yards. To hear him tell it, this was a nice trophy, shot in blowing snow, 700+ yards. Intermittent visibility. He knocked it down on 2 consecutive shots but it got up again. The weather worsened to a blizzard and he was forced to abandon the search. The next day he still couldn�t find it.

I feel bad for this guy to have had this happen to him. He is a good man and didn�t deserve this. It took a big man to own up to having had this happen to him. I also feel for the elk that came to a senseless end. I feel badly for each of the rest of us who hunt and I hope this elk didn�t go off die next to a road or a hiking trail where it will become a local news story. I take no satisfaction in repeating this story. Every time something like this happens it is a dark day for everyone who hunts. This happened to a guy whose hunting abilities are about as good as anyone ever gets.