Who says someone is a prophet of God? The writer? The reader? God? And if God, who says that God said they were? But to use your criteria as a test model, then not only was Enoch a prophet, but he never tasted the death and was taken up into Heaven on God's command. I think I would be most interested in reading Enoch's book if I was concerned about Christianity.
A few verses referencing prophet criteria
2 Peter 1: 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but [a]holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
Deuteronomy 18:22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
Jeremiah 28:9 As for the prophet who prophesies peace, when the word of that prophet comes to pass, then it will be known that the LORD has truly sent the prophet.”
“No one in hell can ever say I went to Christ and He rejected me.
From my studies I find that if you forsake Christ as the head of the body, your prayers and rituals are cast away and He hears you not, so why is the church crying "Then cried they all again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas."
His death had to take place. I don’t believe that they were considered “the Church” at that time. A few prophecies that were proclaimed and fulfilled concerning Jesus Christ
• Bible Prophecy: Isaiah 53:3 says, "He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not." • Fulfillment: John 1:10-11 says, "He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him
• Bible Prophecy: Psalm 41:9 says, "Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me." • Fulfillment: Mark 14:10 says, "Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them."
• Bible Prophecy: Zechariah 11:12 says, "I told them, 'If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.' So they paid me thirty pieces of silver." • Fulfillment: Matthew 26:14-16 says, "Then one of the Twelve - the one called Judas Iscariot - went to the chief priests and asked, 'What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?' So they counted out for him thirty silver coins."
• Bible Prophecy: Isaiah 53:7 says, "He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth." • Fulfillment: Mark 15:5 says, "But Jesus still made no reply, and Pilate was amazed."
• Bible Prophecy: Psalm 22:1-2 says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent." • Fulfillment: Matthew 27:46 says, "About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?' - which means, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'"
• Bible Prophecy: Psalm 22:7-8 says, "All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: 'He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.'" • Fulfillment: Matthew 27:41-44 says, "In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 'He saved others,' they said, 'but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, I am the Son of God.' In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him."
• Bible Prophecy: Psalm 22:15 says, "My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death." • Fulfillment: Matthew 27:48 says, "Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink." • Bible Prophecy: Psalm 22:17-18 says, "I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing." • Fulfillment: John 19:23 says, "When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom."
“No one in hell can ever say I went to Christ and He rejected me.
Christianity answers the questions that bridge the heart and mind. It is truth and relevant. The question is not if Jesus died and rose again, but why?
Last edited by Jahrs; 06/29/19.
“No one in hell can ever say I went to Christ and He rejected me.
So, this guy talks about the criteria for “historians” and “scientists.” Ok, by their criteria, they conclude that Jesus is not “ well attested to?” Well, surprise surprise.
I note that Bart wrote a book about the historicity of Jesus.
So, I would suppose that AS would agree with Bart in that. Jesus was indeed an historical figure. Pretty well attested to as well.
Can’t replicate His miracles by the scientific method? Wouldn’t be miracles if you could and would not testify to the God nature of Christ either. Not surprising to me at all.
I will also note that I agree with Bart in my interpretation (paraphrase) of his conclusion..... that if you believe in Jesus as a worker of miracles and perhaps as the Son of God, it is for theological reasons not the historical record of the miracles. Yep, I agree with that.
Takes more than miracles to see Jesus who He is.
This guy is an entertainer and book seller.
Unlike a religious follower who's obligated to mindlessly believe all the potions of a divine text, I have no requirement to accept all the positions of someone I consider a reputable source.
On the historicity of Jesus, I find Bart's evidence insufficient.
Bart's a PHD professor in Biblical Studies. He started out as a devout Christian, and the more he's studied, the more he realized a literal reading of the text is not tenable.
You find Ehrman’s evidence insufficient.....? Lol...... Ok, you can be the judge, after all it is only you that you have to convince. Perhaps someday you will reconsider when you are confronted with conflict.
Who is this “religious follower who’s obligated to mindlessly believe.....?” Sounds like you. You are obligated to only believe the science.
There is an entire suite of reality, beings and experiences out there that you are seemingly unaware of.
But, by all means trundle on, keeping your eyes shut.
The Bible refers to those in this condition as “blind.”
Why would you presume I've never been confronted with conflict?
I've faced my fair share and see no benefit in confronting conflict through a distorted lens of reality.
As for what I'm "obligated" to believe, as a skeptic, unlike the religious, I'm not "obligated" to believe anything until I find the evidence is sufficient to support a given belief.
When scientist initially make claims about the existence of what we label Dark Matter, it was probably 10 years before I found the evidence sufficient to support the claim it existed. Theologians have had a couple thousand years, and yet, they still can't come up with anything as convincing as the lensing effect of dark matter.
When you have something that good, let me know.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Christianity answers the questions that bridge the heart and mind. It is truth and relevant. The question is not if Jesus died and rose again, but why?
Let's presume for a moment that he didn't exist.
Would the precepts of Christianity remain true?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Then you want to suppose for a moment that history did not turn out the way it did and that there was no Messiah proclaimed in the Old Testament who was never born?
“No one in hell can ever say I went to Christ and He rejected me.
Then you want to suppose for a moment that history did not turn out the way it did and that there was no Messiah proclaimed in the Old Testament who was never born?
The Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, nor the Muslims, nor the Hindu's not the Buddhists, or the Shinto's.....and in my opinion, the evidence for Mohammed and Buddha are equally suspect. I'll even go so far as to throw in Socrates into that club.
Here's the difference between Socrates and everyone else mentioned above. The question of the truth of the propositions made in his name are not dependent upon weather or not he existed. It doesn't matter if The Republic was dictated by Socratic's himself, or written by a student of Plato the precepts stand and fall on their own.
In contrast, you've just admitted the same cannot be said for Christianity.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
What's more honest. Make up an answer, or just admit that you don't know?
To admit that one does not know is more honest and that is ok.
It is faith, either you believe or do not believe.....it is a fifty fifty chance......the toss of a coin, either Heads or either Tails....Heads= peace, love, happiness forever....Tails= nothing, lights out, thats it, nada....
For me, I do not want to be shocked when I die and then find out there really is something on the other side of the grave...if you were a Tails believer, lights out, nothing, nada....but when you die see that there really is something and you were a Heads believer, then WOW...
I think you are missing the point I was making. The critics of Christianity in the days of the early Church did not deny that Jesus performed miracles, because there were too many witnesses...
Famous magicians still draw large audiences that 'witness' objects appearing and disappearing, miracle like.
some even think great magicians have sold their soul to the devil to gain the ability to do what they believe are wonderous awe inspiring supernatural acts or demomstrations.
then others with adopted religious beliefs will think a person can get such supernatural powers from a God.
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
The resurrection of Jesus Christ was the ultimate proof that His deeds were not sleight of hand, illusory, or occultic. .
Christians for millennia have ultimately relied on FAITH that He has risen , not proof.
Evidence or proof based beliefs don't require such faith , or do they?
When it comes to right before ones very eyes miracles or magic shows, People can claim to witness things and simply be fooled into believing something happened that didn't actually happen...but they will swear it did. now if that aint credulous enough ....many folks today [without actually witnessing] totally believe in miracles /or magic shows from 2000+ yrs ago and they remain totally convinced that it happened precisely the way they have been told it happened.
In other words,.. they are putting blind faith in the long strung-out contorted word of mouth subjective beliefs shared from one anonymous [non-witnessing] believer to another....and they take it all to be the indisputable Gospel Truth.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
What's more honest. Make up an answer, or just admit that you don't know?
To admit that one does not know is more honest and that is ok.
It is faith, either you believe or do not believe.....it is a fifty fifty chance......the toss of a coin, either Heads or either Tails....Heads= peace, love, happiness forever....Tails= nothing, lights out, thats it, nada....
For me, I do not want to be shocked when I die and then find out there really is something on the other side of the grave...if you were a Tails believer, lights out, nothing, nada....but when you die see that there really is something and you were a Heads believer, then WOW...
Raspy,
What you're describing is know as Pascal's Wager.
There's a few problems with it. Just because there exists two possibilities, that doesn't mean they are equally weighted. Every time you drive to work, you can either get in an accident, or not get in an accident. If there were equally weighted possibilities it would happen roughly every other day, but I'm sure that's not the case for you.
Additionally, there's way more than two believe systems. Heck most version of Christianity has all other Christians going to hell, and then there's the billions of Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhist etc.....
What if the correct answer is The Mormons?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
In the past I have brought up some of the scriptural indescrepencies he mentions, but IIRC, none of the cF Christians were able to dress them.
Of course not.
The best they ever manage was some Ad hominem against Eherman.
The Jesus of Mark, and the Jesus of John, are two completely different characters. They are so different as to be mutually exclusive, and cannot both represent the true nature of the same character.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 06/29/19.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
There are too many contradictions in the bible and between religions for all of their claims and beliefs to be true.
List your favorite three or four "contradictions in the bible," please.
I don't want to get bogged down with multiple examples. There are websites that have whole lists of contradictions.
I'll give one example that deals with the nature of God as described in the bible. The stark contradiction between a cruel vindictive deity and a god of love;
God is love. - 1 John 4:8 Love is not jealous. - 1 Corinthians 13:4 God is jealous. - Exodus 20:5
So let's begin with what God describes as His character--God is love and God is jealous. Contextually how do we understand these attributes. God so loved the world He gave His only Son and in another passage He loved us while we were yet sinners. That is a picture of His unconditional love for sinful man. God is jealous--but in what way is God jealous? Jealousy needs defined because it presumes jealousy about something or over something and can be a positive or negative inference.
This is a classic example of the alleged contradictions posed by the skeptics--the contradictions are only in their own minds because they want the contradictions to be there so they can dismiss the message of the Bible. Most of these examples are easily resolved with context, common sense, and an honest desire to know the truth.
Only if you ignore what is written and throw logic and reason out of the window.
The full context of this contradiction gives a definition of Love, what love entails, how love is expressed....which is in stark contrast to descriptions of the same god behaving vindictively, killing for trivial reasons, ordering slaughter, condemnation of generations for the 'sins' of their forbears, etc.
1 Corinthians 13; Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.''
1 John 4:7-8; Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
As opposed to
Exodus 20:55 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
so YHWH will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nothing; (Deut 28:63)
I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes. (Proverbs 1:26)
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6, KJV)
"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? " (Lamentations 3:38)
The two opposing sets of descriptions are clearly not compatible. They are irreconcilable.
So, on the contrary, it is the believer who dismisses these contradictions with no consideration, perhaps not understanding the argument, or even what a logical contradiction happens to look like.
Christianity answers the questions that bridge the heart and mind. It is truth and relevant. The question is not if Jesus died and rose again, but why?
Let's presume for a moment that he didn't exist.
Would the precepts of Christianity remain true
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
[quote=Jahrs]Then you want to suppose for a moment that history did not turn out the way it did and that there was no Messiah proclaimed in the Old Testament who was never born?
The Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, nor the Muslims, nor the Hindu's not the Buddhists, or the Shinto's.....and in my opinion, the evidence for Mohammed and Buddha are equally suspect. I'll even go so far as to throw in Socrates into that club.
Here's the difference between Socrates and everyone else mentioned above. The question of the truth of the propositions made in his name are not dependent upon weather or not he existed. It doesn't matter if The Republic was dictated by Socratic's himself, or written by a student of Plato the precepts stand and fall on their own.
In contrast, you've just admitted the same cannot be said for Christianity.
You can’t lump all Jews into that category. Wernt they all jews that were praying in the upper room? All of the initial Christians were Jews as well. And to question the truth of the proposition, as you say, made in Jesus’ name being dependent upon whether or not he existed would mean that the Bible, His Word, would be false.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Jahrs
Christianity answers the questions that bridge the heart and mind. It is truth and relevant. The question is not if Jesus died and rose again, but why?
Let's presume for a moment that he didn't exist.
Would the precepts of Christianity remain true?
And with this question you are admitting that those propositions are true.
“No one in hell can ever say I went to Christ and He rejected me.
In the past I have brought up some of the scriptural indescrepencies he mentions, but IIRC, none of the cF Christians were able to dress them.
Of course not.
The best they ever manage was some Ad hominem against Eherman.
The Jesus of Mark, and the Jesus of John, are two completely different characters. They are so different as to be mutually exclusive, and cannot both represent the true nature of the same character.
State your case that they can’t be the same person.
Contradictions yes but errors no. None, never has been an error proven. It’s totally reliable historically, prophetically and what it claims are that have happened.
Contradictions because the accounts come from different perspectives and personalities of the writers. Errors no because all writers were moved by the Holy Spirit when they wrote.
I’m pretty sure that all condradictions have already been addressed by theologians and can be answered in a reasonable manner.
“No one in hell can ever say I went to Christ and He rejected me.
What about the prophecies that I listed above. How do you explain that. Written many many years beforehand and happened exactly to a T, as predicted. Convince me of how this could have happened.
“No one in hell can ever say I went to Christ and He rejected me.
I think you are missing the point I was making. The critics of Christianity in the days of the early Church did not deny that Jesus performed miracles, because there were too many witnesses...
Famous magicians still draw large audiences that 'witness' objects appearing and disappearing, miracle like.
some even think great magicians have sold their soul to the devil to gain the ability to do what they believe are wonderous awe inspiring supernatural acts or demomstrations.
then others with adopted religious beliefs will think a person can get such supernatural powers from a God.
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
The resurrection of Jesus Christ was the ultimate proof that His deeds were not sleight of hand, illusory, or occultic. .
Christians for millennia have ultimately relied on FAITH that He has risen , not proof.
Evidence or proof based beliefs don't require such faith , or do they?
When it comes to right before ones very eyes miracles or magic shows, People can claim to witness things and simply be fooled into believing something happened that didn't actually happen...but they will swear it did. now if that aint credulous enough ....many folks today [without actually witnessing] totally believe in miracles /or magic shows from 2000+ yrs ago and they remain totally convinced that it happened precisely the way they have been told it happened.
In other words,.. they are putting blind faith in the long strung-out contorted word of mouth subjective beliefs shared from one anonymous [non-witnessing] believer to another....and they take it all to be the indisputable Gospel Truth.
Good looking blue-eyed blond identical twins can make good money working for magicians.
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
