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Campfire 'Bwana
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There is no historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. All we have are the words of anonymous writers, accounts written decades after the described events. And before Josephus, et al, is brought up, the few brief mentions outside of the gospels were made on hearsay, so these are not eyewitness accounts. Paul himself was not aware of some of the things mentioned by the later works of the gospel writers. As for the passage in some copies of Josephus, the Testimonium Flavianum it's a 4th century interpolation added by Eusebius.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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i'm thinking about sellin' my stock in this thread.
how much might it be worth on the open market?
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Not much on the open market.
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
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Campfire Regular
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To all
In reflecting back I think there were times that I could have stated my thoughts more charitably. I apologize for not doing this. I only want to provide what I offered as a benefit and don't want to disrespect anyone. I hope that the interchange here will be helpful in some way to those who participated or who are silently reading. Blessings to all. Seems to me that we have high school graduates trying to explain algebra to petulant and prideful kindergarten children. Children who insist that their simple copy and paste actions from the algebra book constitute some knowledge of algebra. They can list the equations but simply do not understand them. Indeed, they cannot understand and refuse to accept the fact that their level of knowledge and expertise is quite low. One oft repeated example of this is a failure to understand the Law and then the fulfillment of the Law. There will be much confusion about this until one understands Matthew 22:37-40..... if one looks it up, pay special attention to verse 40. I was told one time: “Well, I can tell you and I can explain it to you but I can’t understand it for you.” They lack discernment but do not see the lack. I wouldn’t worry too much about offending folks here. After all, this is the internet and this is the Campfire. Also, they would not be here if they didn’t have some interest and that..... I think.... is a good thing. There are some skeptics that post on these Christian threads that are straightforward in their views and objections. I appreciate much of what Bowsinger posts. He says what he thinks and can usually state his objections. OK. Others are simply here to inject doubts in the minds of the undecided. Others are simply trolls that post absolute malarkey as undisputed fact. But, they are here and again, I am ok with that. Discussion and dispute is better than just an echo chamber.
Last edited by TF49; 07/02/19. Reason: Add echo comment
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Julian wasn't born until 331ce. He's not a contemporary source for Christ. He referenced the Roman census records and he could investigate the story on the basis of the Roman records--that is good proof under any impartial criteria. He had access to more early data than we do. I don't see that mentioned in the link you provided.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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1. we have reasonably indisputable historical evidence from various sources that Jesus was crucified in a public event
2. we have indisputable evidence that some of the early believers "claimed" that He also arose because they were eyewitness of His resurrected body
No, you have not established there premises, and with that, the rest of your argument falls.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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But the passage is not about Jesus. The Suffering servant is Israel, not Jesus. Explain the logic of the Lord laying on Israel the sins of all Israel so that by their stripes Israel might be healed when the context is clearly referencing two separate entities. There is no logic in that in that view. It is to be remembered that the prophets of the Hebrew Bible are not predicting things that are to happen hundreds of years in advance; they are speaking to their own contexts and delivering a message for their own people to hear, about their own immediate futures; In this case, the author is not predicting that someone will suffer in the future for other people’s sins at all. Many readers fail to consider the verb tenses in these passages. They do not indicate that someone will come along at a later time and suffer in the future. They are talking about past suffering. The Servant has already suffered – although he “will be” vindicated. And so this not about a future suffering messiah. In fact, it is not about the messiah at all. This is a point frequently overlooked in discussions of the passage. If you will look, you will notice that the term messiah never occurs in the passage. This is not predicting what the messiah will be. If the passage is not referring to the messiah, and is not referring to someone in the future who is going to suffer – who is it talking about? Here there really should be very little ambiguity. As I mentioned, this particular passage – Isaiah 53 – is one of four servant songs of Second Isaiah. And so the question is, who does Second Isaiah himself indicate that the servant is? A careful reading of the passages makes the identification quite clear: “But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen” (44:1); “Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant” (44:21); “And he said to me, ‘You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified” (49:3).
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Skepticims predates Socrates. It goes back until at least the 5th century bce, so it actually has a longer track record than Christianity. Skepticism begins with the fall of man into sin when Adam and Eve were tempted by --Did God really say ...? However prior to that Adam walked with God and thus knew better. From a purely historical point of view our current beliefs trace back to the advent of human history and the introduction of the 10 commandments and their morality that we still embrace. Are you a Young Earth Creationist? Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve, flood, and timeline of Bishop Ussher?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Our faith is a strong belief based on reasonably indisputable evidence.
yet you have Christians with these mindsets: He said have faith, not evidence. ...
It does not matter what YOU think or believe.
Others are simply trolls that post absolute malarkey as undisputed fact. you mean like your marlarkey [bold] statement above?...how many Christians of 'faith' would actually agree with you that ones particular beliefs don't matter? Others are simply here to inject doubts in the minds of the undecided. ..
Id be more reasonable and say they present differing more rational arguments for the individual to consider/weigh up, if they so wish.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Fast forward to the 7 minute mark: I already addressed this from the Scriptures--I can't help if someone chooses not to recognize the correlation of the gospel record. Right.......your made up secret double pass over......Is that like double secret probation?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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There is no historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. All we have are the words of anonymous writers, accounts written decades after the described events. And before Josephus, et al, is brought up, the few brief mentions outside of the gospels were made on hearsay, so these are not eyewitness accounts. Paul himself was not aware of some of the things mentioned by the later works of the gospel writers. Peter as an eye-witness and apostle affirms the writings of Paul as reliable and the equal of other Scriptures. 2Pet.3:15-16 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. Second Peter wasn't written by Peter. Of all the letters, it's the most widely accepted as a later FORGERY.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337 |
Not much on the open market. thanks for the valuation assessment. i'm slowing beginning to understand about valuations. the open market is miles above the specialty markets or so it seems.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,284 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Our faith is a strong belief based on reasonably indisputable evidence.
then you have Christians with this mindset :
It does not matter what YOU think or believe.
Others are simply trolls that post absolute malarkey as undisputed fact. you mean like your bold statement above?...how many Christians of 'faith' would actually agree with you? Others are simply here to inject doubts in the minds of the undecided. ..
Id be more reasonable and say they present different more rational arguments for the individual to consider if they wish. I addressed this before. Go back and read it again. Related..... what God thinks....and what God thinks about YOU is more important than what you think or even believe. You or I can believe in error. One can think he is ok with God but in fact may not be. What God thinks about YOU is paramount. Now, I fully expect that you will either not understand this or you may choose not to understand. In either case, your response will show that indeed, you do not understand.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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There is no historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. All we have are the words of anonymous writers, accounts written decades after the described events. And before Josephus, et al, is brought up, the few brief mentions outside of the gospels were made on hearsay, so these are not eyewitness accounts. Paul himself was not aware of some of the things mentioned by the later works of the gospel writers. Peter as an eye-witness and apostle affirms the writings of Paul as reliable and the equal of other Scriptures. 2Pet.3:15-16 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. Second Peter wasn't written by Peter. Of all the letters, it's the most widely accepted as a later FORGERY. [quote=Thunderstick][quote=DBT]There is no historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. All we have are the words of anonymous writers, accounts written decades after the described events. And before Josephus, et al, is brought up, the few brief mentions outside of the gospels were made on hearsay, so these are not eyewitness accounts. Paul himself was not aware of some of the things mentioned by the later works of the gospel writers. Nope, 2 Peter was indeed written by Peter.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
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Our faith is a strong belief based on reasonably indisputable evidence.
then you have Christians with this mindset :
It does not matter what YOU think or believe.
Others are simply trolls that post absolute malarkey as undisputed fact. you mean like your bold statement above?...how many Christians of 'faith' would actually agree with you? Others are simply here to inject doubts in the minds of the undecided. ..
Id be more reasonable and say they present different more rational arguments for the individual to consider if they wish. I addressed this before. Go back and read it again. Related..... what God thinks....and what God thinks about YOU is more important than what you think or even believe. You or I can believe in error. One can think he is ok with God but in fact may not be. What God thinks about YOU is paramount. Now, I fully expect that you will either not understand this or you may choose not to understand. In either case, your response will show that indeed, you do not understand. You are presuming a god exists. If not gods exist, Starman's thoughts on the subject are much more relevant than those of a non-existent entity.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Jan 2011
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Our faith is a strong belief based on reasonably indisputable evidence.
then you have Christians with this mindset :
It does not matter what YOU think or believe.
Others are simply trolls that post absolute malarkey as undisputed fact. you mean like your bold statement above?...how many Christians of 'faith' would actually agree with you? Others are simply here to inject doubts in the minds of the undecided. ..
Id be more reasonable and say they present different more rational arguments for the individual to consider if they wish. I addressed this before. Go back and read it again. Related..... what God thinks....and what God thinks about YOU is more important than what you think or even believe. You or I can believe in error. One can think he is ok with God but in fact may not be. What God thinks about YOU is paramount. Now, I fully expect that you will either not understand this or you may choose not to understand. In either case, your response will show that indeed, you do not understand. You are presuming a god exists. If not gods exist, Starman's thoughts on the subject are much more relevant than those of a non-existent entity. Of course I believe that God exists. Starman’s comments are ..... well, this is a guy trying to be relevant in discussions about God and Christianity but exhibits little knowledge ..... and his comments are by and large irrelevant. Remember the “Pantera” nonsense? You may find Starman to be a kindred spirit. Seems both of you do not believe in God..... of course you will say there is no proof of God. This is a tragedy.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I addressed this before. Go back and read it again.
LOL...you sure did, you addressed it by altering/backtracking on your original 'categorical' stance;
It does not matter what YOU think or believe.
followed by;
What you believe about God is less important than what God sees in you.
You or I can believe in error. One can think he is ok with God but in fact may not be.
What God thinks about YOU is paramount.
What God thinks of the wide and varied Christian beliefs of individuals is total guesswork on the part of humans, lest you have access to Gods mind. ..do you know for certain what God thinks of You or anyone else? Yet you claim to be one of those enlighten with the 'truth' deluded into thinking you are somehow appointed to help people., much like some other self-proclaimed 'genuine' christians on this campfire... you are special and unique and set yourself apart from others because you have told yourself you are so.. .......hilarious.
Just trying to help you see. You do a lot of internet searching and you make plenty of comment
about Jesus and Christianity
but you seem to actually have very little knowledge or insight into truth.
TF49 = the man with the 'truth'
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Regular
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I addressed this before. Go back and read it again.
LOl...you sure did, you addressed it by altering/backtracking on your original 'categorical' stance;
It does not matter what YOU think or believe.
followed by;
What you believe about God is less important than what God sees in you.
You or I can believe in error. One can think he is ok with God but in fact may not be.
What God thinks about YOU is paramount.
What God thinks of the wide and varied Christian beliefs of individuals is total guesswork on the part of humans, lest you have access to Gods mind. ..do you know for certain what God thinks of You for anyone else? you claim to be one of those enlighten with the 'truth' deluded into thinking you are somehow appointed to help people., much like some other self-proclaimed 'genuine' christians on this campfire... you are special and unique and set yourself apart from others because you have told yourself you are so.. .......hilarious. Yep, still in kindergarten and claiming to understand algebra. I’ll step in it again and ask you a couple of questions: Do you believe that God exists? Do you believe that Jesus was the Messiah? Can you answer yes or no?
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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If it were me, I think I'd use something other than math in my self righteous comparisons when preaching the word..............
Math is tangible, verifiable and has rules. Religion ................
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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