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To be fair, you can't really prove that either. Best you can do is to say you see no compelling evidence of a God. This question has been floating around out there forever, and is unlikely to be satisfactorily concluded in this thread, I think...

Well said.

First the new world church tells you to trust God/Jesus he will lead you and keep you on the right path. Have faith brother, ect, ect. Then they offer up the Catholic/Nicea/Vatican version of .........well we say only these books are truly about God. And never mind that most Bibles are take offs of the King James Version which was re translated from the 1611 King James which has many of the Lost Books/apocrypha books in it. Is that confusing, misleading and down out right deceiving? You bet it is and it's done for a reason.

As is your mind.

Spot on.

rimfire:

The text, in context, in Isaiah 40:22-23….is as follows:

“…21Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been declared to you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the foundation of the earth? 22He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth; its dwellers are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. 23He brings the princes to nothing and makes the judges of the earth meaningless.…”

So, grasshopper, let me help you with this. The point is the majesty of God and GOD looking ….ready for it? ….. DOWN on the dwellers of the earth. If one is in the skies, like an astronaut, the earth appears as a circle.

Simple, but I suspect you are not seeking an understanding.

No problem, no contradiction…. only an eagerness to be quick to conclude and a lack of understanding on your part. I doubt you ever even read the verse in context and tried to understand it. If you did and failed to see the viewpoint…well, you can guess…..

Keep to your studies grasshopper…… oh, and take your blinders off.



add: Did you actually think this verse teaches that the earth is flat …...or are you just kidding?

Lol I was waiting for this comeback ...

Now if the Bible is written totally from an earth based observatory perspective where did the idea of circle come from? How would they know it to be circular? Would it not be easier understood from an earth based perspective as square?
Isaiah 11:12 "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Whether a circle or a sphere, the writing cannot be based on a purely human perspective--there is evidence of divine guidance and a description from a divine vantage point above the earth. How did the writer know the earth would appear as a circle from this high vantage point?

Next let's notice what all is being described in this verse i.e. the full context?

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

The earth is described as a circle with the heavens like the dome-like canopy of a tent over them. Now we are clearly creating a 3 dimensional perspective of the scene being described. So with a 3-dimensional image where a dome-like canopy encompasses the circle of the earth the imagery is more spherical than pancake. From the vantage point of where God sits above the circle of the earth--the combined look of the heavens and earth is both spherical as a globe and/or circular as a disc.The vantage point is from far away because humanity is comparatively illustrated as grasshoppers--an idiom for being minuscule. Does the earth look circular from a distance--yes. Does it also appear spherical when you consider the heavens as a tented vault over it--yes. Could it be that both perspectives are being given from a human author under deivine guidance describing something he never saw from above the earth--yes very obviously.

Common definition of Hebrew Chuwg: circle, compass,

Can Chuwg also mean sphere?

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon: H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."

Douay-Rheims Bible translated from the ancient Latin Vulgate. When Jerome translated the Hebrew into Latin he used the word globe. This was long before science would have told him to use globe--but he did on the basis of the Hebrew definition and the 3D context being described.

It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in

Henry Morris Study Bible,

Quote:
“40:22 circle of the earth. Hebrew khug, translated “compassed” in Job 26:10 and “compass” in Proverbs 8:27. All three, in context, clearly refer to the spherical shape of the earth.
40:22 stretcheth out the heavens. This phrase is possibly a reference to the expanding universe, as envisioned by modern astronomers. There are numerous references in Scripture to the “stretching-out” or “spreading-out” of the heavens (space) when God created the universe. See, for example, Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 42:5; 44:24; 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12. Alternatively, the “heavens” referred to here may refer simply to the atmospheric heavens, spread out like a curtain or “tent to dwell in” around a circle of the earth. This atmospheric “tent”, refracting and spreading light over the hemisphere, is sharply distinct from the darkness outside.”

How was the Bible understood by some scholars in the ancient church?

Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose giving a reading from Isaiah 40:22.

Quote:
"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).


Enduring Word commentary:
Isaiah uses an interesting phrase when he describes God as the one who sits above the circle of the earth. How could Isaiah possibly know that the earth’s shape was a circle? He probably didn’t know; but the LORD who spoke through Isaiah did know!

iv. Every once in a while, unlearned critics talk as if Bible believing people are members of the “Flat Earth Society” – people so out of touch with real science that they still insist the earth is flat. In response, we should be reminded that Augustine, perhaps the greatest of the church fathers, who lived about a thousand years before Columbus, professed that the earth was round, not flat. As well, in the thirteenth century, Thomas Aquinas, the most profound and prolific of medieval theologians, observed that the spherical shape of the earth could be empirically demonstrated. All they did was agree with Isaiah: It is He who sits above the circle of the earth.

Hmm ... looks like some Christians were clued into the concept of a spherical earth before science could conclusively prove it.

Sphere's aren't, but they look flat when viewed from above.

Well I don't think God is concerned about your judgment of Him based on your own standards, but one day He will judge you by His standards. Do we all get to judge God based on our personal varying standards--how would we arrive at a consensus of judgment? In the meantime with one broad statement you have characterized the heart of Judaism as sick.This is still their only Bible. Do you mean to call Judaism sick?

Additionally the earth is spoken of as being turned...
How did a human author know that?

Job 38:14, The Rotation of the earth

“It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment” (KJV)

(“It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment”) That says nothing about rotating on its axis or orbiting the sun. You probably believe the earth was created in 6 days also. Don't come back with "gods" 6 days are longer than mans 6 days. That reply only came up when people realized the earth was much older than the bible imply s and questioned it.

Big deal, I have a usually normal sister that absolutely believes the world is six thousand years old, and where did she get this crap, from some religious twits bent on control.

xxclaro you don't have to prove something doesn't exist,you have to prove it does.

Don't "have" to do anything of the sort.

I think we all know that it says what it says -- but how did the author know it was being turned at all like Potter's wheel? Are there other ancient books where this knowledge was recorded? If not this sets the Bible apart again.

The scientific evidence requires a Creator--a beginning, therefore the onus would fall on the non-existence of God camp to scientifically explain how the cosmos started without a Designer.

--JSTUART Would you like to buy my ocean front property in Arizona? 100 bucks and its yours sight unseen of course since you don't have to prove something doesn't exist. Pulling your leg of course. It's worth way more than that. Proving something doesn't exist has never been the standard,proving it does is.

No think you, I am good as I am.

Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)

Clement was a 2nd century church father. The following is taken from his writing called The Instructor, which I’m citing from the very last page of Book III entitled To The Paedagous:
Quote:
“And when the seasons, in their circling course,
Winter and summer, spring and autumn, each
Should come, according to well-ordered plan;
Out of a confused heap who didst create
This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass
Of matter didst the universe adorn;--
Grant to me life, and be that life well spent,
Thy grace enjoying; let me act and speak
In all things as Thy Holy Scriptures teach”

(Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol.1).


Clement says the he learned from the scriptures about the sphere of the earth.

I do not want to judge anyone...BUT killing babies and children for any reason is SICK. That includes abortion.
Making excuses for killing kids is LAME in the highest degree.

“The major religions on the Earth contradict each other left and right. You can't all be correct. And what if all of you are wrong? It's a possibility, you know. You must care about the truth, right? Well, the way to winnow through all the differing contentions is to be skeptical. I'm not any more skeptical about your religious beliefs than I am about every new scientific idea I hear about. But in my line of work, they're called hypotheses, not inspiration and not revelation”. Carl Sagan's Contact

I understand ... and under the new covenant this is wrong ... I will only present what the Bible says and will not try to sanitize it in any way, nor do I make excuses or apologies for it. One thing is clear from ancient history is that the surrounding nations were far more bestial in their conduct than what God required of Israel for a specific time and in specific circumstances. God asked His people to separate from the heathen ways. The heathen nations were given opportunity to repent, opportunity to leave Canaan, and opportunity for peace, and they chose to fight and die. Israel only had the right to take life in this way at God's specific order. In the end God used these events to bring about change to the whole world. It is easy to make sweeping judgments about primitive times, but if you lived in those times and in those conditions you would view things much differently.

Times have changed --through the influence of the teachings of Christ barbarism has diminished. Through the influence of the teachings of Christ the medieval "Christian" justification of religious persecution was ended. Through the influence of the teachings of Christ full liberty of conscience, a concept previously unheard of, was introduced to some of the American colonies such as Rhode Island and Pennsylvania, and then accepted by our nation and then by large portions of the world. Where before their might be a degree of toleration for religious dissent, the American experience, through the influence of the teachings and example of Christ corrected a lot of religious wrongs. You can read the writings of Roger Williams to understand the arguments being made for religious freedom on the basis of the NT teachings. If we lose our sense that liberties are a God given right, then they will become government privileges. We can be sure that a government who sees no need to answer to God for anything, will one decide that we no longer need all our rights and we certainly do not need the right to dissent.

The question really is whether God has a right to judge and take human life. He does--sometimes by deliberate act and sometimes by allowing nature to take it's course. The teachings of Christ demonstrated how we are to live as humans with one another under a new covenant of grace. His teachings separate between what God alone has a right to do, what He authorized for a time and purpose in the past, and what is proper conduct for humanity under current covenant of grace.

Again I point out that condemnation of God for His conduct in the OT assumes a few things:
1. That God does not have a right to take human life--He only has a right to create life
2. That we can judge God's dealings in the past, in a completely different time, by our standards of what we believe to be right in the present
3. That we can overlook the fact that God used these events to help change the whole world for the better
4. That we overlook the fact that the other heathen nations of the time were acting largely in their self-interest while God was working with Israel to ultimately benefit the whole world
5. That we recognize the logical inconsistency of saying all religions are equally valid and then ostracize the conduct of God in the OT
6. That we recognize that condemnation of the conduct of God in the OT is really a strike at Judaism, and not a strike against Christianity, because Judaism still considers the OT their only scriptures.
7. That God is still the same moral being in both the Old and New Testaments but that His laws regarding man's conduct have changed--a change that was prophesied and anticipated in the OT.
8. That any moral judgment being made requires an absolute moral standard by which to make the judgment. If we deny the existence of God or any moral absolutes, on the basis of what standard do we judge something to be immoral in any time or place?