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Hasn't replied yet...must have folded.

Hope not.

Going from OT to NT is interesting. At mass you get an old testament reading, a new testament reading, and a Gospel reading. Followed by a sermon that explains the readings, how they all relate, and what it means to us in our lives. Often the old testament reading prophesies what's fulfilled in the new testament.

That's the general theme, the OT is the promise and NT the fulfillment so they cannot be at odds. If you consider the the OT was written to teach moral truths, not history, not "The Art of War" and was written to address the people of the times much can be reconciled. The Jewish patriarchy was particularly strong (ferinstance "father" was all-controlling and could be translated as "lord," call no man lord) and rulers were cruel and absolute

It's probably just a time zone difference... I made the joke because that's what I was told when it night time here and I didn't reply,

The problem is not the morals of the people at the time, being atrocious enough by our standards, but the given descriptions of the god they believed in. Which is more a reflection of their own morality than any timeless values you'd expect to see from a compassionate god, a God of Love as described in the NT. As the saying goes, we create our gods in our own image.

As I said, the OT was the promise (salvation) and the NT the fulfillment.

And God as King would have been portrayed as an earthly king only more powerful and terrible. Offend an earthly king at the time even the slightest and if you're lucky your death wouldn't be too horrible. That's what the people understood, that's what they wrote. Terrible but just.

Keep in mind the OT was written to teach moral values, like follow God's commands, which is true in the NT too. Not to precisely describe the nature of God. That came later. (my opinion)

TS,

I agree with you. Some ideas can only be understood by some one who wants to understand.

“You can lead a horse to new ideas, but you can’t make him think”

And as usual, some things are only spiritually discerned and it seems rare that the Spirit reveals them to those who do not want to see and who choose to stay in the darkness.

Thst is their choice and the direction they take in life is freely made by them. They are not only comfortable with their choices,they are proud of them.

Tragic.

Let's look at the alleged contradiction from a chronological perspective now:
The alleged contradiction (with it's inserted moral conclusions in that do not reference any moral code) is:



1. God created the world and Instituted a Sabbath day of rest and sanctification Gen.22,3

2. God through Moses gave laws regarding the observance of the Sabbath to uphold the creation institution.
a. The Sabbath was one of the Ten Commandments -- a mandatory day of rest and spiritual focus for every living thing in the nation: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter,
your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is
in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (Ex 20:8–11).

The whole congregation was gathered together and the law and the death penalty were stated: Moses assembled all the congregation of the people of Israel and said to them,
“These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to do.Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD.
Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. (Ex 35:1–2).


No fires were to be kindled in the home: You shall kindle no fire in all your dwelling places on the Sabbath day.” (Ex 35:3). This obviously means that you would not be
gathering sticks for a fire.

No cooking was allowed from evening to evening--the family had to prepare their food the day before, for everyone to be able to remember God's goodness and to enjoy the
creative fruits of the week before (as God did on the original Sabbath): On the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers each. And when all the leaders of the
congregation came and told Moses, 23 he said to them, “This is what the LORD has commanded: ‘Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD; bake what you
will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over lay aside to be kept till the morning.’ ” 24 So they laid it aside till the morning, as Moses commanded them, and it did not
stink, and there were no worms in it. 25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the
seventh day, which is a Sabbath, there will be none.” (Ex 16:22–26).

No food gathering was allowed and no one was supposed to be outside their dwelling (for work): The LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore on the sixth day he gives you
bread for two days. Remain each of you in his place; let no one go out of his place on the seventh day.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day. (Ex 16:29–30).

3. The Sabbath observance is given as the central sign of the covenant relationship between God and Israel.
And the LORD said to Moses, 13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you. (Ex 31:12–13; cf Ezek 20.12: Moreover, I gave them my Sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them. )

5. To violate this central mandate was a capital offense (stated over and over and over): You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. 16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. (Ex 31:14–16).


6. So the man who gathers sticks knows about the laws of the Sabbath and the death penalty related to breaking it. He deliberately broke it a way to flaunt each of the precepts regarding the Sabbath: a.) he went out when he was to remain inside, b.) he gathered sticks for a fire which he was not to make c.) he intended to cook a meal d.) he was showing blatant disregard for what everyone knew and practiced and what he knew was important to their faith and practice. d.) ultimately he was rejecting God and God's people and the established sign of their relationship.

Essentially it was an act of "Yea I know about all the laws and death penalty but I am going to do it any way cause you don't scare me none, so whatchya gonna do about it if I go ahead and break every Sabbath law."

7. Some Israelites had already broken the Sabbath institution before it became a law by going out to try to find manna on the Sabbath day. God had told them they would only get manna 6 days and their going out was not only disobedience but it wasn't trusting the fact that there would be no food to gather on Sabbath day. He reproved the people and punished no one. The people went back to the Sabbath observance. (Ex. 16:21-30.) The laws of the Sabbath were then enacted as noted above.

8. Additionally there was an overarching principle that if anyone did anything for the sole purpose of showing deliberate rejection and profanation of the laws of God they were to be put to death. This was treated as a mutinous and traitorous act.
But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the LORD, and that person shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken his commandment, that person shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be on him.” (Numbers 15:30-31)

9. The congregation discovered the man and brought him to the Lord asking how he should be put to death. The community agreed that this man deserved death and they wanted to know from God how to do it. Stoning was chosen because it would be a corporate punishment and corporate example. (Numbers 15).

10. In looking back at all this history of Israel the Psalmist writes in Psalm 145 the following:

One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.

And men shall speak of the might of thy terrible (or awesome) acts: and I will declare thy greatness.

The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works

So the Psalmist in recalling the goodness and mercy of God in the past is also including all His works and all His terrible/awesome acts. He is writing after the kingdom is established and prosperous and is looking back at their history. Rather than seeing the punishment of the man on the sabbath as a contradiction to God's mercy He saw it as a demonstration of God's mercy in giving them laws and order which helped to keep them a stable and God-fearing society and purging them from mutinous traitors.

To say that there is contradiction here is completely untenable because the author deliberately included this act in His praise of God's mercy and care for them--when He said his tender mercies are over all his works. In a situation like this God's mercy is extended to the corporate group by purging the high handed sinner who simply would find another opportunity to do it again and probably influence others the same. This should not be a hard to understand as a principle.

So with this alleged contradiction shown to be another contrived attempt that fails we move on ...

Luke 14:5
And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him. 2And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy. 3And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day? 4And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go; 5And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day? 6And they could not answer him again to these things.

Not really contradictory but would seem so.

Moving on to a comparative study between the Testaments and noticing first their unifying points and then we will note their divergences.

A unifying moral foundation:
1. The OT is made up of civil laws, ceremonial or Jewish religious laws, and a foundational moral code of 10 commandments. The civil and ceremonial laws were abrogated by the NT teachings while the moral code is affirmed by the NT as still being in effect and with universal application. This moral code is the basis of the covenant between God and Israel and also the basis of universal morality for a law of nations.

Israel:
Ex.34:27-28, The LORD also said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”
So Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments

NT Affirmations of the moral code

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law. Rom.3:31
What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” Rom.8:7
Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,”a and any other commandments, are summed up in this one decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom.13:8-10

Antelope Sniper
I will sit tight on this point and not move on till you comment on when you are ready. I saved the moral code you posted for future reference.

Very good comment--example of NT change of OT ceremonial and civil law. The moral principle of the Sabbath remains but the Jewish civil and ceremonial applications are abrogated by Christ. I'm working on that now per you guys request. More to come as we go along.

Your excuses do not begin to justify killing some one for gathering sticks on any day.

No, it doesn't.

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

[b]36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

Oh, ye of little no faith.

Just so we are clear. I am not trying to give you an acceptable answer. I make no excuses for what God had a right to do. I make no excuses for how He chooses to punish now or for all eternity. He will do what is right without our consent. I am only giving a logical explanation that shows there is no contradiction in the biblical record. But logic won't do for someone who wishes to insert their own arbitrary morals into the equation. You guys didn't want to give your moral code but you can't refrain from arbitrary judgement.

And of course In Assyria anyone flagrantly disobeying would have likely been tortured before being executed. The family would also likely have suffered a similar fate. But we don't want to recognize how Gods laws for those times were moving the world to better morals. It's easier just to insert our own arbitrary judgement.

Have you considered seeing how the group consensus morals posted by AS would apply? On the basis of those morals the corporate agreement required a punishment.

I have a strong faith, a firm belief that those who claim their faith is some kind of Biblical proof are dead wrong.
Years ago when I first learned of Deism, I was rather pleased with myself that I had already reached that point more or less on my own.
With Deism I found myself in good company.

Deism strikes me as a "so near, yet so far", kind of thing dreamed up by intellectuals who knew there was a God, Who also was the Creator of all, but could not acknowledge or see God working among His creation. I can tell you He does.

In my belief, I am not wrong, and neither will I be dead.

All God's best to you, sir.

How does one know for sure that there is a God but that He is detached from one true faith, morals, and future judgment.

Unlike you...I don't know for sure about anything that is based on faith.

“You see, the religious people -- most of them -- really think this planet is an experiment. That's what their beliefs come down to.
Some god or other is always fixing and poking, messing around with tradesmen's wives, giving tablets on mountains, commanding you to mutilate your children, telling people what words they can say and what words they can't say, making people feel guilty about enjoying themselves, and like that.
Why can't the gods leave well enough alone? All this intervention speaks of incompetence.” Carl Sagan