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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Quote
The British weren't very understanding of our Declaration of Independence either. Since they were going against the authority of the day, I hope our forefathers are not burning in hell for their disobedience to the ruling authorities.


Correct which is why we let that ultimately in God's hands. But they were not seeking to overthrow faith or morality, rather they were seeking to establish it on a higher level. They sought the wisdom and guidance of God in public prayer and fasting. They all testified that they would have lost had not divine providence aided them. A skeptic would never be able to establish a beneficent country like our founders because they would begin with rejecting God, His morals, and would create their own truth and reality.We know what happens when that occurs because that is what the Nazis and Communists did.Such countries commit atrocities with impunity because their is no moral accountability.


Our forefathers were children of the Enlightenment, which was a movement toward science and away from Faith. As mentioned before, a good many were at least deist, the equivalent of being an Atheist in their day, and Jefferson's personal version of the Bible was highly modified.....

As for your claim about skeptics and government, keep in mind, Philosophical Skepticism is not limited to theistic claims, but is a method to evaluate all truth claims. In their day, Skeptics questioned the claims of Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Scholasticism, and metaphysical claims beyond theism.

The philosophies of Hobbs and Spinoza, were both highly skeptical, and the skepticism of Hume and Kant greatly influenced Locke. The society you live in today was influences by skepticism way more than you realize.

So how many times is God, and how many times is specifically the Christian God mentioned in the Constitution of the United States?



So much of what is said above is misleading. Saying the Enlightenment was a movement away from faith and toward science misses a lot and misrepresents a lot more. The Enlightment was premised on the belief that scientific truth could be discovered by reason. It did not purport to reject revelation as a means of ascertaining truth because it recognized that reason cannot refute revelation and vice-versa. A Deist was not the equivalent of an Atheist in the mind of the founders or on some scale of belief or unbelief. That's just silly. There is a difference between the skepticism that acknowledges "we don't know" and the radical skepticism of today that denies the existence of any objective reality at all. The Constitution clearly references the Christian God since it was axiomatic to the Founders that God meant Judeo-Christian monotheism. The Founders did not come from a tradition of Mohammedism for Chrissakes! The Preamble to the Constitution states that among its ends is the "secur[ing] of the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity". A"blessing" is, by definition, something which God wants you to have. It is something which God thinks is good for you. So, the idea of the existence of a God with the ability to bestow blessings is clearly implied in the Preamble of the Constituion in which its purposes are enumerated. In any event, the Constitution is an enactment of positive law. It's not a philosophic document so we wouldn't expect to find extended references to the philosophy which gave birth to the Constitution in that document itself. The philosophy underlying it is found in the Declaration of Independence in which the agreement between revealed religion (the laws of Nature's God" and reason (the laws of nature) was axiomatic and in which the existence of a God who oversaw the world was also axiomatic. Modern skepticism denies that genuine knowledge of the good, let alone reality, is even possible. This is radical, dogmatic skepticism which Jefferson and the Founders would have abhorred and probably more so than they might have abhorred narrow sectarian dogmatism.

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Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Jesus was in the Bible. Several witnesses concurred on what He did and said.

I reckon if God can make a mans hand He can make it print what He wants it to.

Iirc, Jesus was from Marys womb.


And a man can print what a man wishes to print and claim it for the word of God.

Almost twenty million people today accept the writings of Joseph Smith as gospel.

How are they different from the followers of Peter,, Paul, Mark, Luke etc of two thousand years ago?


The biggest difference is we have much better evidence that Joseph Smith actually existed.


But we have no evidence to validate him as a prophet


Almost twenty million people believe otherwise.

What was the size of Christ's following less than 200 years after his martyrdom?


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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Jesus was in the Bible. Several witnesses concurred on what He did and said.

I reckon if God can make a mans hand He can make it print what He wants it to.

Iirc, Jesus was from Marys womb.


And a man can print what a man wishes to print and claim it for the word of God.

Almost twenty million people today accept the writings of Joseph Smith as gospel.

How are they different from the followers of Peter,, Paul, Mark, Luke etc of two thousand years ago?


The biggest difference is we have much better evidence that Joseph Smith actually existed.


But we have no evidence to validate him as a prophet


Almost twenty million people believe otherwise.

What was the size of Christ's following less than 200 years after his martyrdom?


Truth isn't decided by counting its adherents.


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Originally Posted by Tarquin


Truth isn't decided by counting its adherents.


And how is truth determined?

In the past, it was decided by the priesthood. And nonconformists were put to death.
Still is in the Islamic world.

In western society today, apparently each person is free to determine his own version of "Truth". No two truths seem to match. No one man's truth seems to be a bit more relevant than the next man's truth.

And since this is America, would we have it any other way?


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Originally Posted by Thunderstick

The authority of England was challenged on the basis of what the colonists believed to be a violation a moral code for just government. It was not based on a lone ranger shaking his sticks.


The authority of England was challenged for economics. The rich importers and traders selling goods to the farmers and trappers of the new world were losing profits to the taxes imposed by the crown.

97% of the colonists could not have cared less whether they were taxed by The Crown or a Continental Government. They just wanted peace, quiet, and protection from hostile raiders of any skin tone.


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Originally Posted by victoro
"Arrive in Heaven! Be greeted by the Creator of the universe! No more sickness! Perfect health! No sin! Play 20 questions with a God!
Unfettered communion with Jesus!
Then, as we are being greeted by an infinite God, there will far more....more than I can imagine.
Gonna be good....exciting!
Oh, and if I need a break, stroll on down the streets of gold and over to the rib eye tree.....,"

That's your fantasy and there's no evidence of any of that.

1) If a baby or young child who is unaware of religion dies will they go to Heaven? How are they going to play 20 questions with God if they don't know how to talk yet? Will a baby remain in diapers or grow into adults?

2) If you are bedridden, die at an old age and are down to skin and bone will you be remain like that in Heaven? Can you revert to an earlier age in Heaven when you were very healthy?

3) Why would need a break in Heaven?

4) Why would you need gold (or streets) in Heaven?

5) How will I stroll if I don't have any legs? Will God make me some new legs?

6) Since there's rib eye trees there must be plants in Heaven but no animals. Will you eat them raw? So you be won't be able to see your dogs.

7) Why would I want unfettered communion with Jesus? I don't like wine or bread.

You didn't answer my questions about having sex in Heaven.






LOL.....of course I didn’t answer your question...... one will rapidly tire of trying to respond to every squawk of the seagull...!

Anyway.... there is biblical support for the premise that children who die before the “age of accountability” go to heaven.

Of course, you could have found that out with a rudimentary internet search, but you didn’t want to do that did you?

You’re just one of the flock and feel the need to “squawk.”

Well, go ahead.....

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Quote
The British weren't very understanding of our Declaration of Independence either. Since they were going against the authority of the day, I hope our forefathers are not burning in hell for their disobedience to the ruling authorities.


Correct which is why we let that ultimately in God's hands. But they were not seeking to overthrow faith or morality, rather they were seeking to establish it on a higher level. They sought the wisdom and guidance of God in public prayer and fasting. They all testified that they would have lost had not divine providence aided them. A skeptic would never be able to establish a beneficent country like our founders because they would begin with rejecting God, His morals, and would create their own truth and reality.We know what happens when that occurs because that is what the Nazis and Communists did.Such countries commit atrocities with impunity because their is no moral accountability.


Our forefathers were children of the Enlightenment, which was a movement toward science and away from Faith. As mentioned before, a good many were at least deist, the equivalent of being an Atheist in their day, and Jefferson's personal version of the Bible was highly modified.....

As for your claim about skeptics and government, keep in mind, Philosophical Skepticism is not limited to theistic claims, but is a method to evaluate all truth claims. In their day, Skeptics questioned the claims of Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Scholasticism, and metaphysical claims beyond theism.

The philosophies of Hobbs and Spinoza, were both highly skeptical, and the skepticism of Hume and Kant greatly influenced Locke. The society you live in today was influences by skepticism way more than you realize.

So how many times is God, and how many times is specifically the Christian God mentioned in the Constitution of the United States?



We have already addressed this -- the most liberal of the founders were Jefferson and Franklin. I gave quotes were Jefferson elevated the morals of Jesus above all others and where Franklin said their success was based on divine providence. The rest of the founders were even more religious. None were amoral or atheistic. The declaration of Independence which is seminal to all is based on a Creator giving them equal rights. No atheistic society was ever formed that amounted to anything worthwhile for this world. The Constitution should be read within the context of a religious people who were trying to establish a moral government without a state church.

John Adams

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS
OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.


John Quincy Adams

SIXTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; DIPLOMAT; SECRETARY OF STATE; U. S. SENATOR;
U. S. REPRESENTATIVE; “OLD MAN ELOQUENT”; “HELL-HOUND OF ABOLITION”
My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God.


Elias Boudinot
PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; SIGNED THE PEACE TREATY TO END THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION; FIRST ATTORNEY ADMITTED TO THE U. S. SUPREME COURT BAR; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; DIRECTOR OF THE U. S. MINT
Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned… [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ’s sake, to preside in our councils. . . . We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning . . . in order to open the meeting with prayer.17


Charles Carroll

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; SELECTED AS DELEGATE TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; U. S. SENATOR
On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits, not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts.
Grateful to Almighty God for the blessings which, through Jesus Christ Our Lord, He had conferred on my beloved country in her emancipation and on myself in permitting me, under circumstances of mercy, to live to the age of 89 years, and to survive the fiftieth year of independence, adopted by Congress on the 4th of July 1776, which I originally subscribed on the 2d day of August of the same year and of which I am now the last surviving signer.


John Dickinson

SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA; GOVERNOR OF DELAWARE; GENERAL IN THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION
Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.

[Governments] could not give the rights essential to happiness… We claim them from a higher source: from the King of kings, and Lord of all the earth.

Benjamin Franklin
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; DIPLOMAT; PRINTER; SCIENTIST;
SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.

John Hancock
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS;
REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS
Sensible of the importance of Christian piety and virtue to the order and happiness of a state, I cannot but earnestly commend to you every measure for their support and encouragement.
He called on the entire state to pray “that universal happiness may be established in the world [and] that all may bow to the scepter of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the whole earth be filled with His glory.”


These are just a few from a vast volume.
I fully support being skeptical of that which cannot be sustained by the laws of evidence and I certainly support being skeptical of the amoral basis of skepticism a system wholly inadequate to provide a foundation for anything that is true or enduring.

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
I am sure the fault is in my writing, as you are demonstrably a discerning and learned individual.

But it appears I am not making the intention of my posts clear to you. I see no action of any deity in the matter being discussed..

I see a man gathering sticks in violation of the law executed by a domineering political system. Much like the peasants in Tienamen Square, or any worker who dared speak out against Lenin or Stalin.

No one is sitting in Hell because Hell is a fiction invented by the priests to scare Ignorant peasants into compliance and keep the temple supplied with food, wine, and gold.


I understood your post.

My response was for the benefit of the believers who are blind to the moral equivalence you draw above.

Of course I see no evidence for a hell either. It's just interesting to so see who bible thumping patriots can't see the consequence of their own interpretations scripture.


It is right to disobey government when God's laws are contravened. We obey government insofar as it does not contradict God's law.


Not according to Romans:

Romans 13:1-2: "Obey the government, for God is the One who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the law of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow."


Again Biblical illiteracy to the full scope of Scripture as the apostles said, "We ought to obey God rather than men." And in the same Romans 13 passage government is ordained by God to reward the good an punish the evildoers. Obedience is within that context.

Do you even consider context before making unfounded assertions?

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[/quote]Repeating the same disproven claims over and over does not change the fact that your claims are not true.[quote]


Thank you for making that confession.

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Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Quote
The British weren't very understanding of our Declaration of Independence either. Since they were going against the authority of the day, I hope our forefathers are not burning in hell for their disobedience to the ruling authorities.


Correct which is why we let that ultimately in God's hands. But they were not seeking to overthrow faith or morality, rather they were seeking to establish it on a higher level. They sought the wisdom and guidance of God in public prayer and fasting. They all testified that they would have lost had not divine providence aided them. A skeptic would never be able to establish a beneficent country like our founders because they would begin with rejecting God, His morals, and would create their own truth and reality.We know what happens when that occurs because that is what the Nazis and Communists did.Such countries commit atrocities with impunity because their is no moral accountability.


Our forefathers were children of the Enlightenment, which was a movement toward science and away from Faith. As mentioned before, a good many were at least deist, the equivalent of being an Atheist in their day, and Jefferson's personal version of the Bible was highly modified.....

As for your claim about skeptics and government, keep in mind, Philosophical Skepticism is not limited to theistic claims, but is a method to evaluate all truth claims. In their day, Skeptics questioned the claims of Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Scholasticism, and metaphysical claims beyond theism.

The philosophies of Hobbs and Spinoza, were both highly skeptical, and the skepticism of Hume and Kant greatly influenced Locke. The society you live in today was influences by skepticism way more than you realize.

So how many times is God, and how many times is specifically the Christian God mentioned in the Constitution of the United States?



So much of what is said above is misleading. Saying the Enlightenment was a movement away from faith and toward science misses a lot and misrepresents a lot more. The Enlightment was premised on the belief that scientific truth could be discovered by reason. It did not purport to reject revelation as a means of ascertaining truth because it recognized that reason cannot refute revelation and vice-versa. A Deist was not the equivalent of an Atheist in the mind of the founders or on some scale of belief or unbelief. That's just silly. There is a difference between the skepticism that acknowledges "we don't know" and the radical skepticism of today that denies the existence of any objective reality at all. The Constitution clearly references the Christian God since it was axiomatic to the Founders that God meant Judeo-Christian monotheism. The Founders did not come from a tradition of Mohammedism for Chrissakes! The Preamble to the Constitution states that among its ends is the "secur[ing] of the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity". A"blessing" is, by definition, something which God wants you to have. It is something which God thinks is good for you. So, the idea of the existence of a God with the ability to bestow blessings is clearly implied in the Preamble of the Constituion in which its purposes are enumerated. In any event, the Constitution is an enactment of positive law. It's not a philosophic document so we wouldn't expect to find extended references to the philosophy which gave birth to the Constitution in that document itself. The philosophy underlying it is found in the Declaration of Independence in which the agreement between revealed religion (the laws of Nature's God" and reason (the laws of nature) was axiomatic and in which the existence of a God who oversaw the world was also axiomatic. Modern skepticism denies that genuine knowledge of the good, let alone reality, is even possible. This is radical, dogmatic skepticism which Jefferson and the Founders would have abhorred and probably more so than they might have abhorred narrow sectarian dogmatism.


Well reasoned and historically accurate.

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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by Thunderstick

The authority of England was challenged on the basis of what the colonists believed to be a violation a moral code for just government. It was not based on a lone ranger shaking his sticks.


The authority of England was challenged for economics. The rich importers and traders selling goods to the farmers and trappers of the new world were losing profits to the taxes imposed by the crown.

97% of the colonists could not have cared less whether they were taxed by The Crown or a Continental Government. They just wanted peace, quiet, and protection from hostile raiders of any skin tone.


Read the Declaration for reasons given. How did they raise an army if what you say is even remotely accurate.

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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Jesus was in the Bible. Several witnesses concurred on what He did and said.

I reckon if God can make a mans hand He can make it print what He wants it to.

Iirc, Jesus was from Marys womb.


And a man can print what a man wishes to print and claim it for the word of God.

Almost twenty million people today accept the writings of Joseph Smith as gospel.

How are they different from the followers of Peter,, Paul, Mark, Luke etc of two thousand years ago?


The biggest difference is we have much better evidence that Joseph Smith actually existed.


But we have no evidence to validate him as a prophet


Almost twenty million people believe otherwise.

What was the size of Christ's following less than 200 years after his martyrdom?


and still without evidence.

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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by Tarquin


Truth isn't decided by counting its adherents.


And how is truth determined?

In the past, it was decided by the priesthood. And nonconformists were put to death.
Still is in the Islamic world.

In western society today, apparently each person is free to determine his own version of "Truth". No two truths seem to match. No one man's truth seems to be a bit more relevant than the next man's truth.

And since this is America, would we have it any other way?


This was a question the founders really grappled with--they were keenly aware of religious history. Roger Williams wrote the Bloody Tenet of Persecution and expounded on this point. In the end what the Founders agree upon was to provide a moral government based on Biblical morals. They cited no other moral code as an authority other than the Bible. On the basis of this firm foundation as an anchor point they provided a Constitution which would best support Biblical moral principles but which would avoid the establishment of a state religion. They knew that establishing a state religion would degenerate into a battle over which denomination would be endorsed by the state. However they never put all religions on equal moral footing though they granted all religions the right to practice their faith providing they did not go beyond the Biblical morals infused into our founding documents.

The principles of a Constitutional and Republican form of government that was moral but not religious, had no prior precedence and they could not look to history to inform them. From the quotations previously cited its obvious where they looking for their guidance.

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Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by Thunderstick

The authority of England was challenged on the basis of what the colonists believed to be a violation a moral code for just government. It was not based on a lone ranger shaking his sticks.


The authority of England was challenged for economics. The rich importers and traders selling goods to the farmers and trappers of the new world were losing profits to the taxes imposed by the crown.

97% of the colonists could not have cared less whether they were taxed by The Crown or a Continental Government. They just wanted peace, quiet, and protection from hostile raiders of any skin tone.


Read the Declaration for reasons given. How did they raise an army if what you say is even remotely accurate.

The same way Soros and company manage to create an army of Antifa at any conservative rally.

The rich and powerful are always in the background pulling strings.

The Swamp, it's been around a long time.


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Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
I would not. But the Patriarchs of the OT would.

In that post, I simply offered to you, their rationalization.

I wrote of what I was taught. I did not speak therein of what I believe.





Just for the sake of argument, you would not kill your child for breaking the Sabbath, gathering toys, sticks or whatever, and neither would any reasonable human being in this day and age.

Which appears to make us as human beings more reasonable, more caring, more considerate than the God of the bible as described in these verses....a God, a Being, that is supposed to be the ultimate in love, compassoon and mercy is surpassed by His creatures.

I'll put it this way. if I were a pioneer trying to raise a family in the wilderness, without the recourse of modern legal and medical intervention and I had one bad child making attempts to kill his siblings........Yes, I would put him down.
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
I would not. But the Patriarchs of the OT would.

In that post, I simply offered to you, their rationalization.

I wrote of what I was taught. I did not speak therein of what I believe.



According to the stick gathering account it was God himself who ordered the killing. The patriarchs were not certain what to do

From whose mouth did the congregation hear the order to kill the law breaker?

Does anyone really believe the order was delivered by a voice from the heavens? Or was the order delivered by a priest who claimed to be speaking for God?

As to my personal belief......the swamp did not spring into existence this decade, or this century, or this millennium.

The swamp has existed since men first started gathering together into caves for protection and since men started building clusters of huts and calling them villages.

And the swamp certainly existed in the early Hebrew Priesthood. That priesthood was made of men corrupted by their power over other men, corrupted by their ability to extort tithes and offerings from other men, corrupted by the absolute power of life and death over their subjects, just like any other ruler of their day.

And these are the men who remembered and interpreted and repeated the oral traditions for centuries until the tools were available to record those stories on paper or parchment or hides or clay tablets.


As far as it's known, nobody has ever heard anything from any God, not in the history of the world.

Everything we have comes from those who claim to be the representatives of this or that God. Never God himself, openly and honestly interacting with us.

There lies the problem.

God spoke the 10 commandments audibly to establish Moses as His spokesperson. The congregation also asked that God would speak through Moses.

Jesus came in humanity to bring the gospel. God does not speak His inspired word to each individual otherwise we would have numerous contradictory claims. These would be real and not merely alleged. The prophets of the OT spoke near and far claims to validate them as messengers.
Jesus life death and resurrection validated His ministry. He left His apostles to finish it and the door of revelation was closed.

The validation of the prophets with their fulfillments is unassailable as well as the testimony. Of Jesus in this world.


Except for the part where Moses never existed.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by DBT
[

False analogy....The stick gatherer was not out to kill anyone. He probably just needed more wood for his fire, to feed his family. For which he was not forgiven or chastised, but killed..
.let those without sin cast the first stone!!?

Actually, what the stick gatherer was doing, was challenging the authority of the priesthood. (the governing body in a theocracy)

Tantamount to treason in any modern society, and a crime often punishable by death.



The priesthood did not know what to do, perhaps they would have been lenient. As the narrative goes, it was God who ordered his death by stoning....and that is the issue.

The issue is not with the priesthood, or the governing authority, or people, but the contradictory descriptions of God, a cruel vindictive, unforgiving Tyrant versus a God of Love, always forgiving, good to all, merciful....two completely opposing sets of attributes.


Read the pertinent passages that I cited--they knew he was guilty of the death penalty and simply asked God for guidance in how it was to be executed. Furthermore by a skeptics own definition of morality God did not exist and therefore spoke to no one so the group consensus made a decision but according to a skeptic's mantra the group consensus establishes morality. So no matter how the skeptic spins this story they have no arguable case.


A skeptic does not necessarily accept an "argumentum ad populum" since it's a logical fallacy.

You understand zero about skeptics and skepticism.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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I don't know a whole lot. I do know this great nation needs to get back to honoring The Lord God Almighty.


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Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by DBT

How do you know the rate. You are making that assumption.

Provide another prior example to this case. You are missing the obvious as they would not have brought him to Lord to ask for guidance
on the death penalty if they had prior precedent.


By working on the sabbath , one should incur the death penalty, Scripture is clear on that.
[ Exodus 31:14, Exodus 35:2 ]

its not like this was the first time someone had broken/profained the sabbath and consequently put to death.
[ Leviticus 24:14 ]

so that raises the question, why did they find the need or desire to consult the Lord for what punishment
to issue to that particular blasphemer of the Sabbath?


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Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Quote
The British weren't very understanding of our Declaration of Independence either. Since they were going against the authority of the day, I hope our forefathers are not burning in hell for their disobedience to the ruling authorities.


Correct which is why we let that ultimately in God's hands. But they were not seeking to overthrow faith or morality, rather they were seeking to establish it on a higher level. They sought the wisdom and guidance of God in public prayer and fasting. They all testified that they would have lost had not divine providence aided them. A skeptic would never be able to establish a beneficent country like our founders because they would begin with rejecting God, His morals, and would create their own truth and reality.We know what happens when that occurs because that is what the Nazis and Communists did.Such countries commit atrocities with impunity because their is no moral accountability.


Our forefathers were children of the Enlightenment, which was a movement toward science and away from Faith. As mentioned before, a good many were at least deist, the equivalent of being an Atheist in their day, and Jefferson's personal version of the Bible was highly modified.....

As for your claim about skeptics and government, keep in mind, Philosophical Skepticism is not limited to theistic claims, but is a method to evaluate all truth claims. In their day, Skeptics questioned the claims of Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Scholasticism, and metaphysical claims beyond theism.

The philosophies of Hobbs and Spinoza, were both highly skeptical, and the skepticism of Hume and Kant greatly influenced Locke. The society you live in today was influences by skepticism way more than you realize.

So how many times is God, and how many times is specifically the Christian God mentioned in the Constitution of the United States?



We have already addressed this -- the most liberal of the founders were Jefferson and Franklin. I gave quotes were Jefferson elevated the morals of Jesus above all others and where Franklin said their success was based on divine providence. The rest of the founders were even more religious. None were amoral or atheistic. The declaration of Independence which is seminal to all is based on a Creator giving them equal rights. No atheistic society was ever formed that amounted to anything worthwhile for this world. The Constitution should be read within the context of a religious people who were trying to establish a moral government without a state church.

John Adams

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS
OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.


John Quincy Adams

SIXTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; DIPLOMAT; SECRETARY OF STATE; U. S. SENATOR;
U. S. REPRESENTATIVE; “OLD MAN ELOQUENT”; “HELL-HOUND OF ABOLITION”
My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God.


Elias Boudinot
PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; SIGNED THE PEACE TREATY TO END THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION; FIRST ATTORNEY ADMITTED TO THE U. S. SUPREME COURT BAR; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; DIRECTOR OF THE U. S. MINT
Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned… [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ’s sake, to preside in our councils. . . . We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning . . . in order to open the meeting with prayer.17


Charles Carroll

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; SELECTED AS DELEGATE TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; U. S. SENATOR
On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits, not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts.
Grateful to Almighty God for the blessings which, through Jesus Christ Our Lord, He had conferred on my beloved country in her emancipation and on myself in permitting me, under circumstances of mercy, to live to the age of 89 years, and to survive the fiftieth year of independence, adopted by Congress on the 4th of July 1776, which I originally subscribed on the 2d day of August of the same year and of which I am now the last surviving signer.


John Dickinson

SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA; GOVERNOR OF DELAWARE; GENERAL IN THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION
Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.

[Governments] could not give the rights essential to happiness… We claim them from a higher source: from the King of kings, and Lord of all the earth.

Benjamin Franklin
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; DIPLOMAT; PRINTER; SCIENTIST;
SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.

John Hancock
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS;
REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS
Sensible of the importance of Christian piety and virtue to the order and happiness of a state, I cannot but earnestly commend to you every measure for their support and encouragement.
He called on the entire state to pray “that universal happiness may be established in the world [and] that all may bow to the scepter of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the whole earth be filled with His glory.”


These are just a few from a vast volume.
I fully support being skeptical of that which cannot be sustained by the laws of evidence and I certainly support being skeptical of the amoral basis of skepticism a system wholly inadequate to provide a foundation for anything that is true or enduring.




“Question with boldness even the existence of a God,” Thomas Jefferson urged his nephew, Peter Carr, in 1787, “because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.”

Jefferson wrote that “Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God.” He called the writers of the New Testament “ignorant, unlettered men” who produced “superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications.” He called the Apostle Paul the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.” He dismissed the concept of the Trinity as “mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” He believed that the clergy used religion as a “mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves” and that “in every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.” And he wrote in a letter to John Adams that “the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”

"It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (i.e. the Book of Revelations), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherence of our own nightly dreams."
Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825.


Last edited by BOWSINGER; 07/14/19.

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Originally Posted by wabigoon
I don't know a whole lot. I do know this great nation needs to get back to honoring The Lord God Almighty.



Which one? Who's interpretation?

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