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Th One described in this Book.[Linked Image]


These premises insured by a Sheltie in Training ,--- and Cooey.o
"May the Good Lord take a likin' to you"
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Originally Posted by Sauer200
Originally Posted by wabigoon
I don't know a whole lot. I do know this great nation needs to get back to honoring The Lord God Almighty.



Which one? Who's interpretation?


How about the one they kicked out of school years ago before we went to hell in a handbasket or hadnt you noticed?

You know, the one you dont like the most and the one who made you and that this nation was dedicated to and blessed by?

Last edited by jaguartx; 07/14/19.

Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.

A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.

"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".

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Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Quote
The British weren't very understanding of our Declaration of Independence either. Since they were going against the authority of the day, I hope our forefathers are not burning in hell for their disobedience to the ruling authorities.


Correct which is why we let that ultimately in God's hands. But they were not seeking to overthrow faith or morality, rather they were seeking to establish it on a higher level. They sought the wisdom and guidance of God in public prayer and fasting. They all testified that they would have lost had not divine providence aided them. A skeptic would never be able to establish a beneficent country like our founders because they would begin with rejecting God, His morals, and would create their own truth and reality.We know what happens when that occurs because that is what the Nazis and Communists did.Such countries commit atrocities with impunity because their is no moral accountability.


Our forefathers were children of the Enlightenment, which was a movement toward science and away from Faith. As mentioned before, a good many were at least deist, the equivalent of being an Atheist in their day, and Jefferson's personal version of the Bible was highly modified.....

As for your claim about skeptics and government, keep in mind, Philosophical Skepticism is not limited to theistic claims, but is a method to evaluate all truth claims. In their day, Skeptics questioned the claims of Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Scholasticism, and metaphysical claims beyond theism.

The philosophies of Hobbs and Spinoza, were both highly skeptical, and the skepticism of Hume and Kant greatly influenced Locke. The society you live in today was influences by skepticism way more than you realize.

So how many times is God, and how many times is specifically the Christian God mentioned in the Constitution of the United States?



We have already addressed this -- the most liberal of the founders were Jefferson and Franklin. I gave quotes were Jefferson elevated the morals of Jesus above all others and where Franklin said their success was based on divine providence. The rest of the founders were even more religious. None were amoral or atheistic. The declaration of Independence which is seminal to all is based on a Creator giving them equal rights. No atheistic society was ever formed that amounted to anything worthwhile for this world. The Constitution should be read within the context of a religious people who were trying to establish a moral government without a state church.

John Adams

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS
OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.


John Quincy Adams

SIXTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; DIPLOMAT; SECRETARY OF STATE; U. S. SENATOR;
U. S. REPRESENTATIVE; “OLD MAN ELOQUENT”; “HELL-HOUND OF ABOLITION”
My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God.


Elias Boudinot
PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; SIGNED THE PEACE TREATY TO END THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION; FIRST ATTORNEY ADMITTED TO THE U. S. SUPREME COURT BAR; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; DIRECTOR OF THE U. S. MINT
Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned… [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ’s sake, to preside in our councils. . . . We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning . . . in order to open the meeting with prayer.17


Charles Carroll

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; SELECTED AS DELEGATE TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; U. S. SENATOR
On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits, not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts.
Grateful to Almighty God for the blessings which, through Jesus Christ Our Lord, He had conferred on my beloved country in her emancipation and on myself in permitting me, under circumstances of mercy, to live to the age of 89 years, and to survive the fiftieth year of independence, adopted by Congress on the 4th of July 1776, which I originally subscribed on the 2d day of August of the same year and of which I am now the last surviving signer.


John Dickinson

SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA; GOVERNOR OF DELAWARE; GENERAL IN THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION
Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.

[Governments] could not give the rights essential to happiness… We claim them from a higher source: from the King of kings, and Lord of all the earth.

Benjamin Franklin
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; DIPLOMAT; PRINTER; SCIENTIST;
SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.

John Hancock
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS;
REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS
Sensible of the importance of Christian piety and virtue to the order and happiness of a state, I cannot but earnestly commend to you every measure for their support and encouragement.
He called on the entire state to pray “that universal happiness may be established in the world [and] that all may bow to the scepter of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the whole earth be filled with His glory.”


These are just a few from a vast volume.
I fully support being skeptical of that which cannot be sustained by the laws of evidence and I certainly support being skeptical of the amoral basis of skepticism a system wholly inadequate to provide a foundation for anything that is true or enduring.




“Question with boldness even the existence of a God,” Thomas Jefferson urged his nephew, Peter Carr, in 1787, “because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.”

Jefferson wrote that “Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God.” He called the writers of the New Testament “ignorant, unlettered men” who produced “superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications.” He called the Apostle Paul the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.” He dismissed the concept of the Trinity as “mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” He believed that the clergy used religion as a “mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves” and that “in every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.” And he wrote in a letter to John Adams that “the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”

"It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (i.e. the Book of Revelations), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherence of our own nightly dreams."
Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825.




My, my.... sounds like ole TJ was not a follower. Many smart and capable folks do not believe. Many folks who have not been gifted with great minds have become followers and thereby demonstrated great wisdom.

You, whether of great mind or lesser, will still make a choice. Choose wisely and with humility.

Ole Magic Larry would be pleased with the words of TJ.....btw.... did you see the recent news about Krauss and Epstein? Also seems he got cut loose from ASU..... why?

Wisdom is superior to intelligence.


The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”

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Originally Posted by wabigoon
Th One described in this Book.[Linked Image]


As mentioned above, over 34,000 versions of Christianity.

So, which one?


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Originally Posted by jaguartx
Originally Posted by Sauer200
Originally Posted by wabigoon
I don't know a whole lot. I do know this great nation needs to get back to honoring The Lord God Almighty.



Which one? Who's interpretation?


How about the one they kicked out of school years ago before we went to hell in a handbasket or hadnt you noticed?

You know, the one you dont like the most and the one who made you and that this nation was dedicated to and blessed by?


Engel v. Vitale was in 1962.

The worlds a much better place today than it was in 1962. Constant dollar per capita income in this country's tripled since than.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Quote
The British weren't very understanding of our Declaration of Independence either. Since they were going against the authority of the day, I hope our forefathers are not burning in hell for their disobedience to the ruling authorities.


Correct which is why we let that ultimately in God's hands. But they were not seeking to overthrow faith or morality, rather they were seeking to establish it on a higher level. They sought the wisdom and guidance of God in public prayer and fasting. They all testified that they would have lost had not divine providence aided them. A skeptic would never be able to establish a beneficent country like our founders because they would begin with rejecting God, His morals, and would create their own truth and reality.We know what happens when that occurs because that is what the Nazis and Communists did.Such countries commit atrocities with impunity because their is no moral accountability.


Our forefathers were children of the Enlightenment, which was a movement toward science and away from Faith. As mentioned before, a good many were at least deist, the equivalent of being an Atheist in their day, and Jefferson's personal version of the Bible was highly modified.....

As for your claim about skeptics and government, keep in mind, Philosophical Skepticism is not limited to theistic claims, but is a method to evaluate all truth claims. In their day, Skeptics questioned the claims of Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Scholasticism, and metaphysical claims beyond theism.

The philosophies of Hobbs and Spinoza, were both highly skeptical, and the skepticism of Hume and Kant greatly influenced Locke. The society you live in today was influences by skepticism way more than you realize.

So how many times is God, and how many times is specifically the Christian God mentioned in the Constitution of the United States?



So much of what is said above is misleading. Saying the Enlightenment was a movement away from faith and toward science misses a lot and misrepresents a lot more. The Enlightment was premised on the belief that scientific truth could be discovered by reason. It did not purport to reject revelation as a means of ascertaining truth because it recognized that reason cannot refute revelation and vice-versa. A Deist was not the equivalent of an Atheist in the mind of the founders or on some scale of belief or unbelief. That's just silly. There is a difference between the skepticism that acknowledges "we don't know" and the radical skepticism of today that denies the existence of any objective reality at all. The Constitution clearly references the Christian God since it was axiomatic to the Founders that God meant Judeo-Christian monotheism. The Founders did not come from a tradition of Mohammedism for Chrissakes! The Preamble to the Constitution states that among its ends is the "secur[ing] of the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity". A"blessing" is, by definition, something which God wants you to have. It is something which God thinks is good for you. So, the idea of the existence of a God with the ability to bestow blessings is clearly implied in the Preamble of the Constituion in which its purposes are enumerated. In any event, the Constitution is an enactment of positive law. It's not a philosophic document so we wouldn't expect to find extended references to the philosophy which gave birth to the Constitution in that document itself. The philosophy underlying it is found in the Declaration of Independence in which the agreement between revealed religion (the laws of Nature's God" and reason (the laws of nature) was axiomatic and in which the existence of a God who oversaw the world was also axiomatic. Modern skepticism denies that genuine knowledge of the good, let alone reality, is even possible. This is radical, dogmatic skepticism which Jefferson and the Founders would have abhorred and probably more so than they might have abhorred narrow sectarian dogmatism.


Well reasoned and historically accurate.



“Good Lord! It is even worse than I thought. Some of you guys flunked Bible studies.” Bowsinger

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel. [The Age of Reason]

There are matters in the Bible, said to be done by the express commandment of God, that are shocking to humanity and to every idea we have of moral justice . . . [Complete Writings]

My country is the world, and my religion is to do good. Thomas Paine


Leo of the Land of Dyr

NRA FOR LIFE

I MISS SARAH

“In Trump We Trust.” Right????

SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."












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Originally Posted by jaguartx
Originally Posted by Sauer200
Originally Posted by wabigoon
I don't know a whole lot. I do know this great nation needs to get back to honoring The Lord God Almighty.



Which one? Who's interpretation?


How about the one they kicked out of school years ago before we went to hell in a handbasket or hadnt you noticed?

You know, the one you dont like the most and the one who made you and that this nation was dedicated to and blessed by?


Please refresh my memory,when exactly did I state that I don't like God? You certainly like to put words in people's mouths don't you?

What I don't like are those that pontificate and threaten others with eternal damnation if they don't believe as they do.





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Originally Posted by Thunderstick
[quote]...... A skeptic would never be able to establish a beneficent country like our founders because they would begin with rejecting God, His morals, and would create their own truth and reality.We know what happens when that occurs because that is what the Nazis and Communists did.Such countries commit atrocities with impunity because their is no moral accountability.



The greatest recorded act of homicidal killing was, ironically, committed by God when he killed all human life on Earth except for Noah and members of his family.

That is your best example of an act done with impunity and with no moral accountability.

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Hahahaha. And i bet you cant accept the Earth needs cleansing again.

Your leftest buds are intending on accomplishing almost the same. Except, they dont intend on killing the unjust. They plan on killing all but their friends.

Thats why Hillary was going to shoot Putins planes over Ukraine down and why Slick gave NK billions to stop wmd production.

Its why Zero sent $150 billion to Iran. It was to finance their plan.

Last edited by jaguartx; 07/14/19.

Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.

A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.

"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".

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Originally Posted by jaguartx
Hahahaha. And i bet you cant accept the Earth needs cleansing again.

Your leftest buds are intending on accomplishing almost the same. Except, they dont intend on killing the unjust. They plan on killing all but their friends.

Thats why Hillary was going to shoot Putins planes over Ukraine down and why Slick gave NK billions to stop wmd production.

Its why Zero sent $150 billion to Iran. It was to finance their plan.



Sláinte

I've ended up with Talisker this evening.

You?

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Originally Posted by Thunderstick

God spoke the 10 commandments audibly to establish Moses as His spokesperson. The congregation also asked that God would speak through Moses.


I don't think that God spoke through anybody at any time or place. I am merely pointing out the contradictions within the narrative, the two incompatible descriptions of God and the actions attributed to God within the story line,


Originally Posted by Thunderstick

Jesus came in humanity to bring the gospel. God does not speak His inspired word to each individual otherwise we would have numerous contradictory claims. These would be real and not merely alleged. The prophets of the OT spoke near and far claims to validate them as messengers.
Jesus life death and resurrection validated His ministry. He left His apostles to finish it and the door of revelation was closed.

The validation of the prophets with their fulfillments is unassailable as well as the testimony. Of Jesus in this world.


Have you looked at the history of the Gospels and how the NT was put together through a series of councils, copying between gospel writers, drawing from hearsay, etc?

Not that this matters, the contradiction between descriptions of a God of Love, not keeping record of wrongs, and God who punishes generations for the sins of their fathers, orders executions murder and genocide, are there to be seen and read by anyone.

It's only the filter of faith that does not allow believers to acknowledge these contradictions.



Quote;

''Oral gospel traditions, cultural information passed on from one generation to the next by word of mouth, were the first stage in the formation of the written gospels. These oral traditions included different types of stories about Jesus. For example, people told anecdotes about Jesus healing the sick and debating with his opponents. The traditions also included sayings attributed to Jesus, such as parables and teachings on various subjects which, along with other sayings, formed the oral gospel tradition.[1][2]

Scholars generally understood that these written sources must have had a prehistory as oral tellings, but the very nature of oral transmission seemed to rule out the possibility of recovering them. However, in the early 20th century the German scholar Hermann Gunkel demonstrated a new critical method, form criticism, which he believed could discover traces of oral tradition in written texts. Gunkel specialized in Old Testament studies, but other scholars soon adopted and adapted his methods to the study of the New Testament.[3]


Mark, Matthew and Luke are known as the Synoptic Gospels because they have such a high degree of interdependence. Modern scholars generally agree that Mark was the first of the gospels to be written (see Markan priority). The author does not seem to have used extensive written sources, but rather to have woven together small collections and individual traditions into a coherent presentation.[15] It is generally, though not universally, agreed that the authors of Matthew and Luke used as sources the gospel of Mark and a collection of sayings called the Q source. These two together account for the bulk of each of Matthew and Luke, with the remainder made up of smaller amounts of source material unique to each, called the M source for Matthew and the L source for Luke, which may have been a mix of written and oral material (see Two-source hypothesis). Most scholars believe that the author of John's gospel used oral and written sources different from those available to the Synoptic authors – a "signs" source, a "revelatory discourse" source, and others – although there are indications that a later editor of this gospel may have used Mark and Luke.[16]''

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Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Quote
The British weren't very understanding of our Declaration of Independence either. Since they were going against the authority of the day, I hope our forefathers are not burning in hell for their disobedience to the ruling authorities.


Correct which is why we let that ultimately in God's hands. But they were not seeking to overthrow faith or morality, rather they were seeking to establish it on a higher level. They sought the wisdom and guidance of God in public prayer and fasting. They all testified that they would have lost had not divine providence aided them. A skeptic would never be able to establish a beneficent country like our founders because they would begin with rejecting God, His morals, and would create their own truth and reality.We know what happens when that occurs because that is what the Nazis and Communists did.Such countries commit atrocities with impunity because their is no moral accountability.


Our forefathers were children of the Enlightenment, which was a movement toward science and away from Faith. As mentioned before, a good many were at least deist, the equivalent of being an Atheist in their day, and Jefferson's personal version of the Bible was highly modified.....

As for your claim about skeptics and government, keep in mind, Philosophical Skepticism is not limited to theistic claims, but is a method to evaluate all truth claims. In their day, Skeptics questioned the claims of Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Scholasticism, and metaphysical claims beyond theism.

The philosophies of Hobbs and Spinoza, were both highly skeptical, and the skepticism of Hume and Kant greatly influenced Locke. The society you live in today was influences by skepticism way more than you realize.

So how many times is God, and how many times is specifically the Christian God mentioned in the Constitution of the United States?



We have already addressed this -- the most liberal of the founders were Jefferson and Franklin. I gave quotes were Jefferson elevated the morals of Jesus above all others and where Franklin said their success was based on divine providence. The rest of the founders were even more religious. None were amoral or atheistic. The declaration of Independence which is seminal to all is based on a Creator giving them equal rights. No atheistic society was ever formed that amounted to anything worthwhile for this world. The Constitution should be read within the context of a religious people who were trying to establish a moral government without a state church.

John Adams

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS
OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.


John Quincy Adams

SIXTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; DIPLOMAT; SECRETARY OF STATE; U. S. SENATOR;
U. S. REPRESENTATIVE; “OLD MAN ELOQUENT”; “HELL-HOUND OF ABOLITION”
My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God.


Elias Boudinot
PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; SIGNED THE PEACE TREATY TO END THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION; FIRST ATTORNEY ADMITTED TO THE U. S. SUPREME COURT BAR; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; DIRECTOR OF THE U. S. MINT
Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned… [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ’s sake, to preside in our councils. . . . We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning . . . in order to open the meeting with prayer.17


Charles Carroll

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; SELECTED AS DELEGATE TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; U. S. SENATOR
On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits, not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts.
Grateful to Almighty God for the blessings which, through Jesus Christ Our Lord, He had conferred on my beloved country in her emancipation and on myself in permitting me, under circumstances of mercy, to live to the age of 89 years, and to survive the fiftieth year of independence, adopted by Congress on the 4th of July 1776, which I originally subscribed on the 2d day of August of the same year and of which I am now the last surviving signer.


John Dickinson

SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA; GOVERNOR OF DELAWARE; GENERAL IN THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION
Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.

[Governments] could not give the rights essential to happiness… We claim them from a higher source: from the King of kings, and Lord of all the earth.

Benjamin Franklin
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; DIPLOMAT; PRINTER; SCIENTIST;
SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.

John Hancock
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS;
REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS
Sensible of the importance of Christian piety and virtue to the order and happiness of a state, I cannot but earnestly commend to you every measure for their support and encouragement.
He called on the entire state to pray “that universal happiness may be established in the world [and] that all may bow to the scepter of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the whole earth be filled with His glory.”


These are just a few from a vast volume.
I fully support being skeptical of that which cannot be sustained by the laws of evidence and I certainly support being skeptical of the amoral basis of skepticism a system wholly inadequate to provide a foundation for anything that is true or enduring.




“Question with boldness even the existence of a God,” Thomas Jefferson urged his nephew, Peter Carr, in 1787, “because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.”

Jefferson wrote that “Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God.” He called the writers of the New Testament “ignorant, unlettered men” who produced “superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications.” He called the Apostle Paul the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.” He dismissed the concept of the Trinity as “mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” He believed that the clergy used religion as a “mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves” and that “in every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.” And he wrote in a letter to John Adams that “the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”

"It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (i.e. the Book of Revelations), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherence of our own nightly dreams."
Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825.


Jefferson was one man among the founders. He still held to morals of Jesus. The majority of the others did not except his ravings. We are who we are in spite of him thanks to rest who were of sounder judgment.

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Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Thunderstick

Quote
A person normally gathers wood because wood is needed. Which makes it a fair assumption that the man was gathering sticks because he needed sticks for his fire.


This was not a "normal" case. It did not happen on a regular basis therefore your normal assumption for motive is erroneous.


How do you know the rate. You are making that assumption.

Provide another prior example to this case. You are missing the obvious as they would not have brought him to Lord to ask for guidance on the death penalty if they had prior precedent.



There is no way to know the circumstances, the account is too brief.

However, it is unlikely that in the history of the tribe of Israel that he was the first to careless on the Sabbath. The account written may have been something used as an example of the consequences of breaking the Sabbath.

It's not like everyone was likely to siit immobile on the Sabbath in the fear of overreaching the boundaries of what is or is not defined as 'rest.' It's doubtful that people did absolutely nothing....so breaking the Sabbath would be open to interpretation.


Perhaps the gatherer of sticks was just unlucky to be caught in an activity that his captors thought was excessive...they themselves were outside camp doing whatever they were doing when they caught him.


However, this is all irrelevant to the issue of the contradiction between two opposing descriptions of the nature of God, one that is forgiving (let those without sin cast the first stone), the other ordering the death of a man by public stoning for a minor transgression.

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by wabigoon
Th One described in this Book.[Linked Image]


As mentioned above, over 34,000 versions of Christianity.

So, which one?

Denominations does not equate to versions of Christianity. All the mainline churches have historically embraced the core doctrines of Christianity. The church of Christ is universal and not limited to geographical organizations. Christ never intended for it to have hierarchy of rule.

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Originally Posted by Thunderstick
An avowed skeptic reading the Bible is similar to an avowed communist reading our constitution.


Nothing like it. Believers reading the bible interpret its narrative through the filter of their own beliefs, their faith, which often means ignoring or dismissing all that is inconvenient.

The proof of that lies in the numerous interpretations and offshoots in Christianity, which began almost immediately. Plus of course, Judaism does not recognize Jesus as the prophesied Messiah.

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Originally Posted by jaguartx
Hahahaha. Its why Zero sent $150 billion to Iran. It was to finance their plan.

And God ordained Trump to save us. whistle


The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh

Which explains a lot.
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Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
[quote=Thunderstick]
Quote
The British weren't very understanding of our Declaration of Independence either. Since they were going against the authority of the day, I hope our forefathers are not burning in hell for their disobedience to the ruling authorities.


Correct which is why we let that ultimately in God's hands. But they were not seeking to overthrow faith or morality, rather they were seeking to establish it on a higher level. They sought the wisdom and guidance of God in public prayer and fasting. They all testified that they would have lost had not divine providence aided them. A skeptic would never be able to establish a beneficent country like our founders because they would begin with rejecting God, His morals, and would create their own truth and reality.We know what happens when that occurs because that is what the Nazis and Communists did.Such countries commit atrocities with impunity because their is no moral accountability.


Our forefathers were children of the Enlightenment, which was a movement toward science and away from Faith. As mentioned before, a good many were at least deist, the equivalent of being an Atheist in their day, and Jefferson's personal version of the Bible was highly modified.....

As for your claim about skeptics and government, keep in mind, Philosophical Skepticism is not limited to theistic claims, but is a method to evaluate all truth claims. In their day, Skeptics questioned the claims of Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Scholasticism, and metaphysical claims beyond theism.

The philosophies of Hobbs and Spinoza, were both highly skeptical, and the skepticism of Hume and Kant greatly influenced Locke. The society you live in today was influences by skepticism way more than you realize.

So how many times is God, and how many times is specifically the Christian God mentioned in the Constitution of the United States?



So much of what is said above is misleading. Saying the Enlightenment was a movement away from faith and toward science misses a lot and misrepresents a lot more. The Enlightment was premised on the belief that scientific truth could be discovered by reason. It did not purport to reject revelation as a means of ascertaining truth because it recognized that reason cannot refute revelation and vice-versa. A Deist was not the equivalent of an Atheist in the mind of the founders or on some scale of belief or unbelief. That's just silly. There is a difference between the skepticism that acknowledges "we don't know" and the radical skepticism of today that denies the existence of any objective reality at all. The Constitution clearly references the Christian God since it was axiomatic to the Founders that God meant Judeo-Christian monotheism. The Founders did not come from a tradition of Mohammedism for Chrissakes! The Preamble to the Constitution states that among its ends is the "secur[ing] of the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity". A"blessing" is, by definition, something which God wants you to have. It is something which God thinks is good for you..



“Good Lord! It is even worse than I thought. Some of you guys flunked Bible studies.” Bowsinger

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel. [The Age of Reason]

There are matters in the Bible, said to be done by the express commandment of God, that are shocking to humanity and to every idea we have of moral justice . . . [Complete Writings]

My country is the world, and my religion is to do good. Thomas Paine


He was not a spokesman for the majority of the founders or this country. The age of reason came after the revolution. He also accused Washington of being a traitor. Jefferson kept slaves after writing all men were created equal. We have a great country in spite of them. I won't dismiss their contributions but they did not create the moral foundation of this nation that made it great.

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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
An avowed skeptic reading the Bible is similar to an avowed communist reading our constitution.


Nothing like it. Believers reading the bible interpret its narrative through the filter of their own beliefs, their faith, which often means ignoring or dismissing all that is inconvenient.

The proof of that lies in the numerous interpretations and offshoots in Christianity, which began almost immediately. Plus of course, Judaism does not recognize Jesus as the prophesied Messiah.

And skeptics and communists don't have a filter lol?

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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Thunderstick

Quote
A person normally gathers wood because wood is needed. Which makes it a fair assumption that the man was gathering sticks because he needed sticks for his fire.


This was not a "normal" case. It did not happen on a regular basis therefore your normal assumption for motive is erroneous.


How do you know the rate. You are making that assumption.

Provide another prior example to this case. You are missing the obvious as they would not have brought him to Lord to ask for guidance on the death penalty if they had prior precedent.



There is no way to know the circumstances, the account is too brief.

However, it is unlikely that in the history of the tribe of Israel that he was the first to careless on the Sabbath. The account written may have been something used as an example of the consequences of breaking the Sabbath.

It's not like everyone was likely to siit immobile on the Sabbath in the fear of overreaching the boundaries of what is or is not defined as 'rest.' It's doubtful that people did absolutely nothing....so breaking the Sabbath would be open to interpretation.


Perhaps the gatherer of sticks was just unlucky to be caught in an activity that his captors thought was excessive...they themselves were outside camp doing whatever they were doing when they caught him.


However, this is all irrelevant to the issue of the contradiction between two opposing descriptions of the nature of God, one that is forgiving (let those without sin cast the first stone), the other ordering the death of a man by public stoning for a minor transgression.



You just can't stop building your case on speculation while ignoring the laws that prescriptively addressed it. Then you go to NT and borrow from a different code. You seem intent on making inconsistent arguments and you keep changing your alleged original contradiction. If you had a case at the outset you would not feel compelled to keep revising it.

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Originally Posted by carbon12
[quote=Thunderstick]
Quote
...... A skeptic would never be able to establish a beneficent country like our founders because they would begin with rejecting God, His morals, and would create their own truth and reality.We know what happens when that occurs because that is what the Nazis and Communists did.Such countries commit atrocities with impunity because their is no moral accountability.



The greatest recorded act of homicidal killing was, ironically, committed by God when he killed all human life on Earth except for Noah and members of his family.

That is your best example of an act done with impunity and with no moral accountability.


Do you believe that happened? You must or you have no case. God has the right to give life and take it away while we do not. He will judge the world again. Nice sidestep from acknowledging that atheists never built a good society.

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