Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire For Christians,non-Christians & Atheists

I was saying you ought to study church history from original sources--the ante-Nicene and Nicene works. That is by far the largest source of original data.Skeptic scholarship assumes they can revise history to suit their objectives, But as I pointed out there history of the canon is fraught with unfounded speculation and lack of facts. Maybe they don't study history.

.....and you know this as fact how?

You didn't answer any of my questions because you have NO answers to any of the questions I've asked. So you think I can find the answers to my questions by doing a rudimentary internet search. You're the one that described the Christian Heaven so why wouldn't I ask you directly?

“Good Lord! It is even worse than I thought. Some of you guys flunked Bible studies.” Bowsinger

“In the Affairs of this World Men are saved, not by Faith,
but by the Lack of it.”
― Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack

“The best way to see Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.”
― Benjamin Franklin

“You desire to know something of my Religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it: But I do not take your Curiosity amiss, and shall endeavour in a few Words to gratify it... I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his [Jesus'] divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble.
[Letter to Ezra Stiles, March 9, 1790]”
― Benjamin Franklin, The Life and Letters of Benjamin Franklin

“I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe in that He ought to be whipped from pilar to post and back again for His shameful actions toward Humanity.”
― Benjamin Franklin, Wit and Wisdom from Poor Richard's Almanack

I overlook nothing and you overlook everything. You know less than nothing about God and I have no words to change that for you, because you can't hear them or understand them simply because you won't.

Similarities between Marxism (the philosophical premise of Communism) and Skepticism expressed on this thread

Anti-religious principles of Marxism https://www.marxist.com/marxism-religion-liberation-theology220701.htm

1.Marxists stand on the basis of philosophical materialism, which rules out the existence of any supernatural entity, or anything outside or "above" nature. There is, in fact, no need for any such explanation for life and the universe - least of all today. Nature furnishes its own explanations and it furnishes them in great abundance.
2. The latest discoveries have finally exploded the nonsense of Creationism.
3.So, in spite of all this scientific development, why does Religion still have a grip on the minds of millions? Religion offers men and women the consolation of a life after death.
4.Where religion teaches us to lift our eyes to the heavens, Marxism tells us to fight for a better life on earth. Marxists believe that men and women should fight to transform their lives and to create a genuinely human society which would permit the human race to lift itself up to its true stature. We believe that men and women have only one life, and should dedicate themselves to making this life beautiful and self-fulfilling. If you like, we are fighting for a paradise in this life, because we know there is no other.
5. Lenin also pointed out that Engels recommended that the revolutionary party should carry out a struggle against religion: "The party of the proletariat demands that the state shall declare religion a private matter, but it does not for a moment regard the question of a fight against the opium of the people - the fight against religious superstition, etc., - as a private matter. The opportunists have so distorted the question as to make it appear that the Social Democratic Party regards religion as a private matter." Lenin on Religion pg 18
6.In the struggle of science against religion - that is to say, the struggle of rational thought against irrationality - Marxism sides wholeheartedly with science.
7. From the Communist manifesto:Question 22. Do Communists reject existing religions?
Answer: All religions which have existed hitherto were expressions of historical
stages of development of individual peoples or groups of peoples. But
communism is that stage of historical development which makes all existing
religions superfluous and supersedes them.
8.Vladimir Lenin was highly critical of religion, saying in his book Religion:
Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism.[7]
In The Attitude of the Workers’ Party to Religion, he wrote:
Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class.[8]

Now notice the clear difference between Marxist/Skeptics views of Deity and morals and those of our Founders.

... the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal l, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

...appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world

...a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,

Everyone who signed this document believed in:
1. laws of nature--meaning they are universal and absolutes wherever there is nature (the Bible speaks of this also)
2. Nature's God--the Cosmos has a ruler who establishes the laws of nature
3. truths to be self-evident -- beyond all reasonable debate or skepticism
4. a self-evident truth is -- all men are created equally
5. a self evident truth -- that the Creator bestowed rights upon men--such as life liberty and the pursuit of happiness
6. God is the supreme judge of all causes
7. The invocation of Divine aid is essential in their cause


In looking at what has been posted on this thread the Skeptic beliefs are much more closely aligned with Marxism than what our founders all signed. In fact most of the skeptics on this thread could not honestly sign the Declaration based on what they posted. Based on the clear evidence of this thread, we have a right:

1. to be skeptical of whether they espouse the American principles of free government
2. to be skeptical of the value of their belief in our free societies that are based on God given freedoms
3. to be skeptical of the scholarship which underlies their belief system- because we like our founders believe Creation and moral absolutes are self evident and beyond reasonable debate

How can we define Christianity, but by the actions of the Christian Church at any point in time? During the Inquisition, the Catholic Church was THE Christian Church. But forgo that thought.

Lets discuss historical atrocities and the nature of the people who committed them.

Spain was a Christian nation with a king blessed by the Papacy, and carried one or more priests on every expedition, when they started sailing across the Atlantic and systematically eliminated (to the extent they found possible) and enslaved the indigenous peoples of South and Central America.

This Christian government of the US, which you have praised at length, went to great lengths in their attempt to eliminate every indigenous tribe in North America.

Both being massive acts of genocide.

Germany was a Christian nation in the 1930s, and were assured German victory in WW II was ordained by God.

Atheists, Bhuddhists, Shintoists, nor Muslims hold no monopoly on the perpetration of atrocities to advance a political, or military, or religious agenda. But then that is redundant as the three agendas are often the same, or so entwined as to be inseparable.

Wow + P.

Git a gryp, dude.

You still do not understand the difference in believing in God but denying the Bible.

Some of the same men that you put up while trying to prove your faith have also found fault with the Bible as written. But they still believed in God.

But you can’t see that or at least won’t admit it. All you can do is call names. Call skeptics who disagree with you...communists.

You do not understand your own Faith.

Who needs faith when you have "evidence"?

I believe religion is "the opiate of the masses" and one should strive to experience heaven here on Earth as there is no other. I also believe in moral absolutes which are beyond reasonable debate and find these to be self evident. How are these things mutually exclusive?

Christianity is defined by the teachings and example of Christ. Anything that does not mirror those is a departure and is not authentic. Men though professing Christianity have departed from the teachings of Christ and have done very evil things at times. There are some notable examples in American history of people who also advocated for the right of the native Americans. Some of the early colonies had good relationships based on mutual respect. Men who abandon the thought of moral responsibility to God will become even worse--atheistic societies are very good examples of that.

Do you believe in moral absolutes based on God's moral standards as the founders? Moral absolutes outside of God are merely the product of a society. The Nazis created their own society and morals and by their own creation they were perfectly moral in gassing the Jews. So how could we try them for war crimes for obeying their own laws and morals?

I did not say, nor does the Declaration say you must believe the Bible. I only repeated what the Declaration says and noted your beliefs more closely aligned with Marxism than the founders who signed the declaration. I used the term Marxist because that is the root philosophy.An empirical observation based on evidence in this thread is not name calling. Do you deny the the listed premises of Marxism and could you honestly sign the Declaration? I have not heard you profess belief in God as a Creator or His moral absolutes or that we need His divine aid for the success of our nation.

Lets not forget a more recent event where orthodox Christians murdered close to 9,000 Muslims. Does the Srebrenica Massacre in the early 1990's ring a bell? That was predominantly Christians that committed that atrocity, not atheist. Some moral backbones there.

The socialist are demanding civil war in the USA.

Reiterating:
Christianity is defined by the teachings and example of Christ. Anything that does not mirror those is a departure and is not authentic. Men though professing Christianity have departed from the teachings of Christ and have done very evil things at times. Men who abandon the thought of moral responsibility to God will become even worse--atheistic societies are very good examples of that.

Comparatively speaking:According to the authoritative “Black Book of Communism,” an estimated 65 million Chinese died as a result of Mao’s repeated, merciless attempts to create a new “socialist” China.

In total it is thought that Communism has accounted for over a 100 Million deaths from the early 1900s to the 1980s.

Mass killings since the advent of Christ should not be justified in any case. The atheists have typically been the most brutal of all because they do it without moral compunction.

I believe the moral code which is self evident embraces each member of the society. It gives every member the same opportunity to pursue health, wealth, and happiness. It does not benefit any member of that society at the expense of another member. It expects every person to honor any bond that person has made.

And yes it does align closely with the Ten Commandments because those old Hebrew Priests were nothing if not skilled sociologists. They knew what their tribe needed to become and remain cohesive.

obviously the Nazis victimized many segments of their society for the benefit of other segments.

Equally as bad are those who do their killing "In the name of God",

You didn't hear because you didn't listen.