Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire For Christians,non-Christians & Atheists

I'm sorry if I missed this. I have not heard skeptics come forward and say:
I believe in the God the Creator, who gives us our moral laws and moral rights. I believe He is the supreme judge of all. Without His divine aid our country cannot be successful.

I did hear some snippets of what is believed in part but not in whole. It seems like you guys are reluctant to make a clear statement of where you stand on every point.

Like Jesus, and the Founders, I am totally opposed to all forms of religious or irreligious oppression or persecution but I also am for building our country and society on Biblical morals. Identifying morality is inescapable because it is the basis upon which the Constitution and the laws are built.

They’re mutually exclusive because there is no such thing as a “moral absolutes which are beyond reasonable debate” and “self evident”. Values cannot be reached from facts or to put it another way what should be cannot be ascertained from what is.

The rational materialist (or material rationalist?) must irrationally believe that unlike everything else in that system their mind is able to transcend its Darwinian programming in order to arrive at some semblance of moral absolute for the good of all. That belief is called faith.

Everyone ultimately ends up exercising faith in one way or another. The idea that one system or making sense of this (religion) is morally superior to another (rationalistic humanism) is as subjective as the faith it takes to look at the processes of evolution andbelive that it’s products could magically transcend them.

Two faiths; one must simply decide which one is most capable of supporting a contented life... and of being scaled up to do so over long periods of time.

I meant it as an example of activities that may be construed as being work. It may be construed that people who caught the stick gatherer were themselves engaged in work by arresting him....nor does it say what they were doing out of camp. There are too many holes in the account.

Not that it matters to the contradiction between a God of love who ''is not easily angered, keeps no record of wrongs. ''Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.'' and a God who orders a man killed for the trivial offense of gathering sticks on a Sabbath....which may not even be listed on the 'not to do list'

Really? Evidence please.

Just try nor to use the old chestnuts of Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot because Hitler was a theist, and Stalin, Pol Pot, et al, acted not on behalf of atheism but power and political ideology.

You are trying to impose your own conditions again.


sceptic
/ˈskɛptɪk/s

1. a person inclined to question or doubt accepted opinions.



''Skepticism, also spelled scepticism, in Western philosophy, the attitude of doubting knowledge claims set forth in various areas. Skeptics have challenged the adequacy or reliability of these claims by asking what principles they are based upon or what they actually establish. They have questioned whether some such claims really are, as alleged, indubitable or necessarily true, and they have challenged the purported rational grounds of accepted assumptions. In everyday life, practically everyone is skeptical about some knowledge claims; but philosophical skeptics have doubted the possibility of any knowledge beyond that of the contents of directly felt experience''

You assume too much. I was referring not to 'Skeptic scholarship' but to academic studies of the history and development of the bible.

Gathering wood on the Sabbath, openly and in direct and flagrant disobedience to a clear command of God. Stick your finger up at God and expect Him to just let it go? Nope, it doesn’t work that way.

But, it seems you do not understand, accept and certainly don’t believe the truth of the Law and what it shows and represents. Also, you can’t understand the fulfillment of the Law.

It would seem you really don’t like the idea that sin has consequences.

Sin, flagrant disobedience and disregard for the Creator, has consequence.

God does not tolerate sin and sin is not allowed in His heaven.


At one time, I ran a large crew of men doing some difficult and somewhat dangerous work. Working for me was simple.... listen to the instructions ..... do it the right way..... if one would not do that, if he was endangering himself and the rest of the crew and he would be gone pdq.

Life is kinda that way..... you can listen and do it right or like Stevie Nicks sang.......“go your own way.”

Another thought on the stick gatherer......

What do you think God should do with that same guy who spent a lifetime sticking his finger up at God..... ignoring the Creator.... belittling the death of the Son on the cross...

What would you expect God to do with that man...... a man sinful by nature and to the core....

Now, I know what you would WANT God to do, but sin is not allowed in Heaven and that man has made a choice and he has made a decision to live his life without God.

Well you landed on academic error regarding the canon. A lot of revisionist history is done by skeptics so they can use it to claim they are backed by the most recent scholarship. The history of the church will show writers quoting from books of the Bible and Bible translations long before the first local council on the canon which shows your academic source as having flunked the history test.

We are not told about the circumstances by which the man was gathering sticks, or what the people who caught him were doing.

Not that any of this matters to the contradiction between descriptions of a God of Love and the vindictive Tyrant of the old testament. If one is true, the other must be false, hence a contradiction between the two sets of descriptions.

No such thing. I refer to academic scholarship relating to the history and development of the collection of books that we see in the bible....including the issue of where its stories and beliefs came from, creation myths borrowed from older religions and cultures, flood legends, etc, modified and incorporated into the narrative of the Torah, etc, etc.

I hope you remember that "assume too much" when your knee bends.

You yourself happen to be assuming the vindictive tyrant over the God of Love, who does not keep a record of wrongs and is 'good to all' unconditionally.

Well, you’re not much of a bible scholar.

You don’t even have a grasp of the basics.

Meh...

The "basics" begin with the fact that there's not good evidence to support the proposition of it's literal truth.

so the church stopped operating through various methods of coercion since Aquinas? ...lol

ignition, and/ or simply adding fuel to an existing flame is considered work.
Driving ones car is forbidden because it involves ignition of fuel.

21st century Orthodox Jews consider pressing a pedestrian crossing button ( while on the way to the synagogue)
as a form of work which the sabbath forbids.

Sour Grapes....you are merely lashing out in frustration.

If you were actually willing to consider the issue, you'd understand that I am only quoting from the bible, that it is the bible itself that gives two opposing descriptions of its God. One that describes a Vindictive Tyrant, willing to kill for trivial reasons, punishing generations for the actions of their ancestors.... and the other, a God of Love, forgiving, one who does not keep a record, is kind and merciful to all.

This is not me making stuff up, just descriptions taken from the bible. Which I have fully supported with quotes and references.

Presuming that the gatherer of sticks intended to take his bundle back to camp for his fire, he wasn't doing it in secret. He would have been seen returning to camp with his load, he would know that his neighbors would see....yet he went out and did what he did....why? Perhaps because gathering sticks wasn't considered breaking the Sabbath until the point where it was put to the test?

Not that it matters to the issue of killing someone for that reason, a God of death rather than a God of Life. There being many possible punishments or penalties that don't involve taking a life (though shalt not kill)

Lots of chores need doing on Sundays...