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If pigeon holing people makes you feel better , go right ahead.

Not to belabor the point but in philosophy "free will" is a term of art for a rather complex, but basic,concept. It is not a simple term.

What I pointed out has nothing to do with claims over which happens to be more authorative, just there are differences and contradictions, that the Gospels were written decades after their described events by anonymous authors and compiled by a series of councils...that the first bible is not identical to its current form, and even then there are differences, Catholic bible, etc.

Then there's the consideration that Judaism does not recognise Jesus as the promised Messiah because he did not meet the requirements.

As of course the problem of evil and the undeniable contradictions between NT descriptions of a God of Love and the vindictive tyrant of the OT.

The term itself does not describe human behaviour or explain how or why decisions are made. It's just a reference to something, which is why the free will debate has spanned centuries.

Are you flesh born [or conceived] in a state of natural man 'Adamic' sin and already cut-off from God at that time .. or not?

No not pigeon holing, your interpretation of scripture is right on at times.

It only describes an aspect of the nature of man. And I would argue is necessary in sustaining the "I-thou" relationship which is a basis of Western thought.

Again. Free will does not consider how or why decisions are made. But before we can make a decision we must have the ability to make a decision. Free will is concerned with the nature of that ability.

You are avoiding the contradiction issue by deflecting problems with the bible onto your opponents. Ad Homs being a sign of frustration.

What you fail to consider is that my 'bible scholarship' - of which I have made no claims - is irrelevant to what the bible itself says about its god, which I merely quote. The quoted verses themselves paint two opposing pictures of God, two contradictory accounts of the nature and character of God.

This is what you studiously ignore. Given the nature of faith, it's not surprising.

The brain of a Butterfly can make decisions, a computer can select between a set of options based on the given criteria. Making decisions is not a matter of will.

Yep, just what I expected. Nothing but more empty bafflegab.

No record of wrongs? ...... God is good to all...unconditionally?

What say you?

No answer from you ......

I have seen a number of skeptics allege that there is no such thing as free will. The individual is simply incapable of making a free will choice as he is bound by his circumstances, training, upbringing, culture and he didn’t get what he really wanted for his birthday.

What a pity..... simply a stick in the stream of life.... pushed around by circumstance.

the disciples bobbed around like a helpless cork in the ocean, when their fishing boat was tossed & thrown around
in the stormy sea of Galilee...effectively they were being..' pushed around by circumstance'.

They ventured out in a calm sea, but circumstances then changed beyond their will.

Still no rational argument. You offer your own 'bafflegab' even while accusing your opponent of it.




What do you mean 'no answer?'

Are you even reading what I say and what I quote in support?

It doesn't seem to be the case.

Once again. Please pay attention Keep in mind that these are not my words or claims but what your bible itself says about its god;


''The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.''Psalm 145:9 - tell the stick gatherer about the tender mercy of god....ordered to be publically executed when there are other more merciful punishments available.




1 John 4:7-8; Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.


1 Corinthians 13; Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.''



If you cannot see the contraction between this and OT references to its God, there is no hope for you, you have no grasp of Logic or reason.


Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos
3:6, KJV)

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? "
(Lamentations 3:38)

The Lord is a man of war, - Exodus 15:3.

"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13



''I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me'' Exodus 20:4

What happened to;

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Matt 5:44

You can use the term free will if you like but as a common reference it simply does nothing to explain how or why decisions are made.

Nobody is claiming that we cannot make decisions.

Obviously we can.

So can any animal that has a central nervous system and a brain.

The point being that the term 'free will' tells us nothing about the behaviour of humans or other animals. There is far more to behaviour, how it is driven or decided than what the simplistic term 'free will' can convey.....which is in fact, not much.

Again, nobody argues that we cannot make decisions. The issue is with the how and why of decision making.

Thank God that Thomas Jefferson lead the battle to separate church and state. Some of the rigid, my way or the highway, closed minds on this thread have even called his ideas; “rantings.”
Scary.

“...legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.”
― Thomas Jefferson, Letters of Thomas Jefferson

“Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of it's protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and infidel of every denomination.”
― Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography of Thomas Jefferson

“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
― John Adams

“Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt. will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.
[Letter to Edward Livingston, 10 July 1822 - Writings 9:100--103]”
― James Madison, James Madison: Writings

“Christianity may be good and Satanism evil. Under the Constitution, however, both are neutral. This is an important, but difficult, concept for many law enforcement officers to accept. They are paid to uphold the penal code, not the Ten Commandments … The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don’t like that statement, but few can argue with it.”
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

“Those who would renegotiate the boundaries between church and state must therefore answer a difficult question: why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly?”
― Sandra Day O'Connor

Only because you happen to personally disagree. You express your own perspective without regard for the perspective of others.


When it comes to impartiality or objectivity, the sceptic can say exactly the same about you, except the sceptic would be right and you would be wrong.

You would be wrong because you interpret the bible through the filter of your faith while the sceptic justs sees what is written. There are many sceptics who were once Christians and it was the contradictions and the absurdities of the bible that brought about their de-conversion.

As I mentioned before, the cruel vindictive nature of the old testament god was noted very early in the development of Christianity. As it split into opposing groups, the Gnostics relegated Yahweh to the status of a lower god, an evil Demiurge.

''In Gnosticism the Demiurge created evil as in the Apocryphon of John (in the Nag Hammadi library), the Demiurge has the name "Yaltabaoth". Through arrogance born of stupidity, he proclaims himself as God:''


''In the Gnostic view, there is a true, ultimate and transcendent God, who is beyond all created universes and who never created anything in the sense in which the word “create” is ordinarily understood. While this True God did not fashion or create anything, He (or, It) “emanated” or brought forth from within Himself the substance of all there is in all the worlds, visible and invisible. In a certain sense, it may therefore be true to say that all is God, for all consists of the substance of God.''

Free will is 1) a capacity of the human intellect 2) to choose independently of natural, social, or divine restraints (different than coercion).

Look at 2) above. A computer is obviously restrained by the laws of physics. I would argue that a butterfly is similarly restrained by the laws of nature. People are not though their choices may be influenced by many things. We are not even restrained in our choices by a deity, heaven or hell, whichever you wish. Unless, of course, people are on par with butterflies.

The problem being that there is always a natural restraint.

It's called the condition of your brain, its capacity and information state in any given moment in time.

You don't choose to forget where you placed your key, you cannot recall because recalling is a brain function.....but a moment later the memory may come to mind unbidden.

You are not taking into consideration the underlying unconscious processes, neural activity, that generates and forms your experience of perception, thought and decision making.

You need to define what you mean by free will; compatibalist free will, Libertarian, the ability to have chosen otherwise in any given instance in time, etc, etc.

For a start, do you believe that the world is determined or probabilistic?




The brain is also restrained by it's own architecture, which may or may not enable such abilities as math, the ability to reason, control impulses, etc.

Neural architecture being the sole source of information processing and decision making, sensory inputs, distribution and processing of sensory information, integration with memory followed by conscious awareness of that information in the form of our experience of the world and self.....

you are on par with something far less appealing or capable than a butterfly;

Job 25:6
"how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!”

DBT, That may be if man was nothing more than a physical being. Even the ancient Greek philosophers saw a transcendent aspect in man. There is more to us than brain chemistry.(I for one have made the most damnfool, illogical, self destructive decisions even a butterfly would avoid. Nothing restrained me.)

Starman, All of the New Testament is to the contrary. No comparison to the Deity, but He thinks we're worth saving.