JFK jr was in my older brother’s frat when he attended Brown University. My Older brother knew JFK jr fairly well having lived with him for a few years. When he died in the plane crash I called my brother for some input because of all the conspiracies flying around ( pun intended)
My brother said he wasn’t surprised and stated JFK jr was a nice guy but not too bright, over confident at times and a bit over sure of his abilities.
I always suspected the whole crew was drunk, asleep, or hung over. Can't hear or see a destroyer coming in time to get out of the way? Even in pitch black?
On the other hand, I've seen a couple nights like that (both drunk and pitch black, tho not necessarily at the same time! . )
On an Idaho elk hunt, I reached my palomino ride when he was just a blur in the darkening night.. All I could see, vaguely, on the 5 mile ride back to camp was his ears. Never touched the reins, of course. Giving them their head doesn't work well on a boat, or a plane.
Stargazer: glad to hear you're a commercial pilot. That would suggest that on this topic, at least, you know something about what you are talking about. Outstanding.
As for the NTSB report, yes, I read it. Several times, a number of years ago. Learned some good lessons about behaviors, attitudes, and practices to avoid so I can stay alive myself in the air. I did not pick it up again to comment on this thread. What I did do, unfortunately, was take for truth something you posted:
Originally Posted by Stargazerman
36 hours total ,of which 9.4 hours were at night, approx. only 3 hours of that flight time without CFI.
My bad.
When I looked back at some source notes I had on my computer, I found the 0.8 hours night time number, which I shared with you last night. I stand corrected on the number. But as usual, our interchange has confirmed my opinion that literally nothing you write on these boards can be taken seriously without fact-checking. Unfortunately, your miserable personality and arrogance still come through after fact-checking is done. Can't be helped. Oh, well. I'll just continue to ignore most of your screeds.,
As for the other guys on here, Jorge, etc.... JFK Jr's dead. Everyone on this thread who has a shred of aviation experience agrees he f u c k e d up. There are a lot of lessons in the story of that flight that any current pilot should incorporate into his mental preparations for conducting flights. That's all I have to say about that. Hope all y'all stay safe in the air.
Have a great day.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
my opinion that literally nothing you write on these boards can be taken seriously without fact-checking..
You doubled checked your facts to be sure of yourself ...and still got it wrong...LOL.
easy to see who has the credibility problem..
Originally Posted by DocRocket
Edited to add:. I just rechecked the numbers, and those given in Such argazer’s post are erroneous.
JFK Jr had 37 hours logged in the Saratoga, and only 0.8 hours of that total was in night conditions.
Originally Posted by DocRocket
What I did do, unfortunately, was take for truth something you posted:
re; 36 hours total ,of which 9.4 hours were at night, approx. only 3 hours of that flight time without CFI.
So You are down on yourself because My numbers sourced directly from NTSB are correct.
BTW, This is what I actually posted at first:
"36 hours total , of which 9.4 hours were at night. with approx. 3 hours of that flight time without a CFI, and about 0.8 hour of that time was flown at night, which included one night landing."
followed by my precise quote from NTSB: .."The pilot's estimated flight time in the accident airplane was about 36 hours, of which 9.4 hours were at night. Approximately 3 hours of that flight time was without a CFI on board, and about 0.8 hour of that time was flown at night, which included a night landing."
Originally Posted by DocRocket
As for the NTSB report, yes, I read it. Several times,
Yet you didn't recognize my data on Saratoga hrs sourced from NTSB as being true and accurate.
then instead of doing your 'double checking' with NTSB ..you used your own incorrect personal notes...LOL.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
StarGazer, why don’t you tell us about your “flying career” experience?
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
The fact he bought the farm in reasonably good WX and at night, clearly substantiates the fact he had no clue...
.. The fact as you state he was not (sic) appropriately qualified to fly in IMC conditions killed him and his passengers.
not appropriately qualified does not have to mean he had 'no clue'.
His CFI for IFR and the information supplied to NTSB , does not support your claim.
quote]...NTSB:
. On April 5, 1999, the pilot returned to FSI to begin an airplane instrument rating course. During the instrument training, the pilot satisfactorily completed the first 12 of 25 lesson plans. The pilot's primary CFI during the instrument training stated that the pilot's progression was normal ..... The CFI stated that the pilot's basic instrument flying skills and simulator work were excellent. However, the CFI stated that the pilot had trouble managing multiple tasks while flying, which he felt was normal for the pilot's level of experience".
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
The fact he bought the farm in reasonably good WX and at night, clearly substantiates the fact he had no clue. Besides, an argument can be made there is no such things as "night VFR"..
Originally Posted by Starman
MVY 1753: Clear skies; visibility 6 miles in haze; winds 210 degrees at 11 knots.
I agree that night VFR is sketchy at best. Notice the Martha's Vineyard weather report, visibility 6 miles in haze. Haze over water equals no or poorly defined horizon, combine that with some stars above and a few fishing boats with lights on the water and you quickly can't tell up from down unless you know how to fly instruments. It's a recipe for vertigo. I've been flying for 30 years and it's easy to get vertigo over water at night with no clear horizon. 9 hours of nighttime is nothing, I log that pretty much every time I go to work.
He had no business being there with his level of inexperience. He might have been legal under the FARs but that doesn't mean a whole lot when you're augering into the drink with your wife and her sister.
I've been flying for 30 years and it's easy to get vertigo over water at night with no clear horizon.
9 hours of nighttime is nothing, I log that pretty much every time I go to work.
Rocket will tell ya 9.4 hrs is a pretty decent amount.
Originally Posted by Crow hunter
RE starman; MVY 1753: Clear skies; visibility 6 miles in haze; winds 210 degrees at 11 knots.
Notice the Martha's Vineyard weather report, visibility 6 miles in haze.
MVY ATCT are on the record to NTSB ,..that at about the time of crash.[ target's last radar position recorded at 2140:34] aircraft on visual approach for MVY were saying visibility was 10-12 miles.
ASOS observation for the night of the accident:
MVY
2053...Clear at or below 12,000 feet; visibility 8 miles; winds 250 degrees at 7 knots; temperature 23 degrees C; dewpoint 19 degrees C; altimeter 30.09 inches of Hg.
2153...Clear at or below 12,000 feet; visibility 10 miles; winds 240 degrees at 10 knots, gusts to 15 knots; temperature 24 degrees C; dewpoint 18 degrees C; altimeter 30.10 inches of Hg.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
The fact he bought the farm in reasonably good WX and at night, clearly substantiates the fact he had no clue...
.. The fact as you state he was not (sic) appropriately qualified to fly in IMC conditions killed him and his passengers.
not appropriately qualified does not have to mean he had 'no clue'.
His CFI for IFR and the information supplied to NTSB , does not support your claim.
quote]...NTSB:
. On April 5, 1999, the pilot returned to FSI to begin an airplane instrument rating course. During the instrument training, the pilot satisfactorily completed the first 12 of 25 lesson plans. The pilot's primary CFI during the instrument training stated that the pilot's progression was normal ..... The CFI stated that the pilot's basic instrument flying skills and simulator work were excellent. However, the CFI stated that the pilot had trouble managing multiple tasks while flying, which he felt was normal for the pilot's level of experience".
lol, 12 out of 25 hours, launching out over the water under "night VFR" something I personally never have done in over thirty years of flying. Then again, I'm just a lousy navy flier.... Anyway, that to me is clueless, unless you mean, he's Chuck Yeager when compared to someone who's never flown, then you might have a point...a small one
Edited to add: a lot can be learned about what is asked and not answered... And BTW, what would you call this approach?
Last edited by jorgeI; 07/24/19.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
. )
