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Nothing is suddenly 'turned' into a different species. That's not how evolution works.


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It's complex.. A guy I used to know had a saying, "remain teachable." I forget that sometimes. Cheers.


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--- Kid Rock 2022


Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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Originally Posted by GunGeek
Originally Posted by JoeBob
Yeah, but that’s kind of like turning a calf embryo into a Auroch as that a bird pretty much IS a dinosaur. Turn a bird into an elephant and I’ll be impressed.
How do you not see that statement as an admission of evolution?


What? That dinosaurs never died out and survived as birds?

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Originally Posted by GunGeek
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by GunGeek
Evolution is straight up bad ass...Such a cool field of study.

That's always been how I've seen it, too.
Earlier I gave the example of how Tiktaalik was found. That is so bad ass... Evolution helped them find where geographically, how deep to dig, and what specifically they should find. After a decade of search; they eventually found almost exactly what they were looking for.

I read the book about this soon after its discovery, Your Inner Fish, by the man who found it .

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Originally Posted by JoeBob
No less believable than saying, “Trust me. It just takes a lot of time.”

There is no "trust me"...that is the antithesis of science. It is clearly observable if you just allow you to look at it.

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If the earth is 6,000 years old. Why did God create the Earth with already extinct animals...including humans?

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Originally Posted by GunGeek
Originally Posted by JoeBob


If you’re correct, I expect that we’ll eventually be able to take a dog fetus and turn it into a baby. But I wouldn’t hold my breath
Sounds like science fiction...but would you believe me if I told you something very similar to that is going on right now? Paleontologist Jack Horner is methodically working his way through the steps necessary to turn a chicken back into a dinosaur. His team has identified the genes that turn on and turn off DNA instructions to create teeth, arms, and a tail. Took them 7 years to grow teeth in a chicken.

A chicken already is a dinosaur. It's of the type that has beaks and wings. There were all sorts of dinosaurs. Birds, the kind with beaks and wings, were the only type that survived the Cretaceous.

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by GunGeek
Originally Posted by JoeBob


If you’re correct, I expect that we’ll eventually be able to take a dog fetus and turn it into a baby. But I wouldn’t hold my breath
Sounds like science fiction...but would you believe me if I told you something very similar to that is going on right now? Paleontologist Jack Horner is methodically working his way through the steps necessary to turn a chicken back into a dinosaur. His team has identified the genes that turn on and turn off DNA instructions to create teeth, arms, and a tail. Took them 7 years to grow teeth in a chicken.

A chicken already is a dinosaur. It's of the type that has beaks and wings. There were all sorts of dinosaurs. Birds, the kind with beaks and wings, were the only type that survived the Cretaceous.


Finally, we agree.

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I was sitting in my truck eating lunch yesterday behind my office watching a Mockingbird. Not a doubt in my mind that if that little bastard was six feet tall, it would be a Velociraptor.

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By the way, I’m the only person on this board whose father discovered a dinosaur and has It share a latinized version of the family name. At least I’ll bet as much.

Last edited by JoeBob; 07/25/19.
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Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by MtnBoomer
Originally Posted by JoeBob


Well, Einstein, since you are such a stickler for terminology you should probably figure out that you’ve given the definition for micro evolution, which no one denies, instead of evolution.

Yah, please explain your thoughts on mutations again. LOL


When you are talking about new information that you would need to get from ancient simple life, you need new proteins to form new genes. The chances of one mutation in one protein fold is 10 to the 77th power. Now, there are many folds in a protein and many proteins in a gene. But then, assuming you get that, and you get altered DNA, DNA alone does not control the laying out of the body plan, the morphological plan. You could mutate DNA until the cows some home and it doesn’t change the plan. There are other factors at work. The life forms in that early Cambrian era had on average 50 cells with all the genes and proteins therein.

Darwinian evolution is not adequate to explain this jump from simple life forms with simple plans to new body parts laid out in new ways with new functions. That requires new information. Where did it come from? There are only about 10 to the 78th power particles in the entire universe and the odds of a viable mutation in a single protein fold is 10 to the 77th. The math is insurmountable.

I have thoughts on what happened, but I’m not going to make any claims. But I think it is pretty apparent that something happened or there is some mechanism that we do not understand as the math makes that jump pretty improbable.



You are so clueless.

To begin with, every human is natuarally born with mutations, on average somewhere between 50 to 100 alleles in a babe are different from either parent. We also see the same thing in "identical" twins. In really there will be about a 100 allele difference between the "identical" twins. Now extend the accumulation of those differences across a population, and across an extended period of time and the changes add up quickly.



But I wasn’t talking about humans. I was talking about the mutations that caused a fifty cell organism to develop an eye when nothing like that structure existed.

I am literally NOT arguing for the existence of God in this thread. I’m not even denying micro evolution. And maybe, I’m not even arguing a bit more than micro evolution in higher order animals. But to get from those simple animals to the higher ones, you need new information and the math makes the insertion of that information by random mutation unlikely. The earth simply isn’t old enough even if it is 4.5 billion years old. There haven’t been enough organisms.



Ok.

Let's do some math.

Let's take something like e.coli. It has 4 million base pairs and divides every 20 minutes. That's 72 generations in a day, each doubling in size. The last generation alone will have 4,700,000,000,000,000,000,000 bacteria

Now e.coli mutates at a rate of 1 mutation per 1000 replication, so there's still 4,700,000,000,000,000,000 mutations present in just the last generation from that one bacteria in one day.

Now that number is just 2^72

So, lets take 4.5 billion years, times 365 days, times 72 generations per day.....that's 1.1826e+14

Now lets start with one bacteria and divide it and it's successive generations that many times.
When I plug it into my statistic program RStudio, it returns.........Infinity........

So mathematically, yea.....there's plenty of time for it all to happen.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by JoeBob

Yeah, but that’s kind of like turning a calf embryo into a Auroch as that a bird pretty much IS a dinosaur. Turn a bird into an elephant and I’ll be impressed.

A bird cannot become an elephant. The line that led to elephants separated from the line that led to birds back in the early Permian Period.

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Originally Posted by DBT
Nothing is suddenly 'turned' into a different species. That's not how evolution works.


That is funny right there, all this gibberish of evolution and how it works. Well, it isn't anymore scientifically proven than religion amd the argument will go on into perpetuity like a 45 ACP being superior to a 9mm. As long as there are men with differing opinions, there will be no conclusion to this debate.

There will be a real awakening at death when the evolutionists find out that life isn't over...


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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by GunGeek
Originally Posted by JoeBob


If you’re correct, I expect that we’ll eventually be able to take a dog fetus and turn it into a baby. But I wouldn’t hold my breath
Sounds like science fiction...but would you believe me if I told you something very similar to that is going on right now? Paleontologist Jack Horner is methodically working his way through the steps necessary to turn a chicken back into a dinosaur. His team has identified the genes that turn on and turn off DNA instructions to create teeth, arms, and a tail. Took them 7 years to grow teeth in a chicken.

A chicken already is a dinosaur. It's of the type that has beaks and wings. There were all sorts of dinosaurs. Birds, the kind with beaks and wings, were the only type that survived the Cretaceous.

Of course you are right. The project is to change it back by using EARLIER discarded evolutionary traits.

Again predictive. Evolutionary science says this could be possible, and Horner’s work is confirming this.

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The estimate of the number of every organism ever to exist on earth including bacteria is 10 to the 40th power.

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Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by GunGeek
Originally Posted by JoeBob


If you’re correct, I expect that we’ll eventually be able to take a dog fetus and turn it into a baby. But I wouldn’t hold my breath
Sounds like science fiction...but would you believe me if I told you something very similar to that is going on right now? Paleontologist Jack Horner is methodically working his way through the steps necessary to turn a chicken back into a dinosaur. His team has identified the genes that turn on and turn off DNA instructions to create teeth, arms, and a tail. Took them 7 years to grow teeth in a chicken.

A chicken already is a dinosaur. It's of the type that has beaks and wings. There were all sorts of dinosaurs. Birds, the kind with beaks and wings, were the only type that survived the Cretaceous.


Finally, we agree.

If you agree with me on this, you really need to watch that series I recommended.

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Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by MtnBoomer
But nobody claims they just grew an eye with the next generation. Mutations are not limited to the change of one amino acid. Whole hunks of DNA can mutate when transferred. There's a whole body of science about this stuff.


But we aren’t just talking about mutations. We are talking about viable mutations. Then beneficial mutations. Then viable, beneficial, and heritable mutations.


Right.

You just described natural selection.

Those who inherit the bad one's don't last for long....many don't even make it out of the womb. As many fertilized human eggs, if not more, spontaneously auto-abort than people born. Natural selection doesn't began at birth.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Idahoshooter, is your question because you seek an answer, because truth is important to you...or is it just something to create a discussion?

In other words, if what you believed to be true was not, would you want to know, and would you change your life and thinking in the way truth dictated?
It's better to not know and reap the consequences then it is to know and reap the consequences. What has been seen cannot be unseen. When you learn things beyond any doubt you can't ever un-learn them.

If a quest for truth, for no other reason then it is true, is not the reason for the original question, then be honest with yourself and you'll get along a lot easier in your natural life.

If on the other hand you actually want to know what is true and what scientific and historical evidence there is for the conclusion to be based on, please let me know by PM.
No one know all truth. No human can. But most of the lies that people believe are quite easy to dispel if you simply look into it. In my experience it takes about 16 hours to undo most of the "science' that we were all taught was true and show the counter points. You can easily learn the counter point as easily as watching a few movies if you truly desire to know.

Will that lead you to ultimate truth?
No.
But it will lead you away from the lies, and as the old saying goes, "nature hates a vacuum".
When what we believed to be true is show to use that it is not, we are on a good path to understand how to learn more.

Those that do not want to know never want anyone else to know either.
We see that with the Dem/Comms in their daily activities. Libs like "Paddler" are perfect examples of what I am speaking of. He's not alone either. There are LOTS of folks (many here on this site) who would be very offended if you didn't agree with them and embrace the beliefs they want to assert. If you start to learn anything true, the enemies of truth come out of the woodwork. It's not enough for them to want to stay in their comfort zone, but they will be VERY offended if you don't stay with them.

As for me, I care for mankind as I should, but if any individual man doesn't want to learn I am not a bit interested in showing them the any of the souses of the information. I don't have a dog in their fight. I see no reason I should care about the direction of their lives more then they do themselves.

So please consider my counter question deeply, and let those that scream and shout and insult do so at top speed and maximum intensity.

The offer is genuine however, and if you want information concerning those questions you posted, and a lot of other questions too, just let me know.

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by JoeBob

Yeah, but that’s kind of like turning a calf embryo into a Auroch as that a bird pretty much IS a dinosaur. Turn a bird into an elephant and I’ll be impressed.

A bird cannot become an elephant. The line that led to elephants separated from the line that led to birds back in the early Permian Period.


If you are correct in evolution, then with sufficiently advanced technology it should be possible. All the information is there correct?

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Originally Posted by JoeBob
By the way, I’m the only person on this board whose father discovered a dinosaur and has It share a latinized version of the family name. At least I’ll bet as much.
That by itself doesn’t make you any more or less qualified. But it is SERIOUSLY cool! Props to dad!!

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