|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,651 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,651 Likes: 1 |
Without an absolute, guiding moral ideology, and I don't think secular humanists have that, you're left with the bad of human nature and none of the good. Why did the grand Marxist experiment degenerate into a country run by corrupt oligarchs in a very short time on the scale of human history? How well has the supposedly God given moral guidance worked out for us? As described in the bible, God doesn't even abide by the given rules.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,651 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,651 Likes: 1 |
Without an absolute, guiding moral ideology, and I don't think secular humanists have that, you're left with the bad of human nature and none of the good. Why did the grand Marxist experiment degenerate into a country run by corrupt oligarchs in a very short time on the scale of human history? You don't think secular humans have guiding morals? There are many theories on the origin of morals, and religion is only one of them. Yes, empathy, social organization.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,927 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,927 Likes: 3 |
If you don't understand that "micro" and "macro" evolution are the completely different, you've no business engaging in a discussion of evolution.
Micro evolution is the e.coli examples you've cited, with variations developing within a species in response to environment or random chance.
But the species remains e. coli, no matter how long it's been in existence.
Macro evolution is the development of a new species through changes to an earlier species, an alleged example bein ape to man.
Macro evolution is a term used by Young Earth Creationist in an attempt to deny the greater reality of evolution. By definition "Macro Evolution" is just evolution on a geologic time scale. So if you grant micro evolution, but deny macro evolution, you are by default denying the existence of geologic time scales, which of course is the position of the biblical literalist YEC's. The two terms have an accepted definition, which is exactly as I have stated it. e. coli from a billion years ago is still just e. coli. And it will be e. coli a billion years from now. The passage of time's got nothin to do with it. e. coli ain't gonna turn into a different species. That is your mistaken belief. For an interesting study gather a few books discussing the drift of tectonic plates since the time of Pangea. And then do some reading on the classification, history, and distribution of one family of fresh water fishes, Cichlidae. Today cichlids appear on every continent except Australia. They are very intolerant of salt, or even brackish water, so they did not migrate from continent to continent, nor even from river to river via ocean, and certainly not over land. Anyway, not until man started packing all kinds of different species all over the world via air and ocean freight. Consider how the continent of Australia separated from Pangea before the rise of Mammalia, and marsupials became the dominant animals of Australia, while they were displaced by mammals everywhere else. Every discovery made in the field of geology enhances the evidence for evolution.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,569 Likes: 8
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,569 Likes: 8 |
That is your mistaken belief.
For an interesting study gather a few books discussing the drift of tectonic plates since the time of Pangea. And then do some reading on the classification, history, and distribution of one family of fresh water fishes, Cichlidae.
Today cichlids appear on every continent except Australia. They are very intolerant of salt, or even brackish water, so they did not migrate from continent to continent, nor even from river to river via ocean, and certainly not over land. Anyway, not until man started packing all kinds of different species all over the world via air and ocean freight.
Consider how the continent of Australia separated from Pangea before the rise of Mammalia, and marsupials became the dominant animals of Australia, while they were displaced by mammals everywhere else.
Every discovery made in the field of geology enhances the evidence for evolution.
Fish end up in lotsa places they got no business being. You have the faith that a fish that ain't where you think it should be, proves the theory of evolution. It's good to have faith.
Last edited by Fubarski; 07/27/19. Reason: a
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,927 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,927 Likes: 3 |
Without an absolute, guiding moral ideology, and I don't think secular humanists have that, you're left with the bad of human nature and none of the good. Why did the grand Marxist experiment degenerate into a country run by corrupt oligarchs in a very short time on the scale of human history? Mostly because they had no Constitution which limited the power of the Executive Branch. Absolute power does corrupt absolutely, whether that power be contained in a Theocracy or a Socialist Democracy.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,927 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,927 Likes: 3 |
That is your mistaken belief.
For an interesting study gather a few books discussing the drift of tectonic plates since the time of Pangea. And then do some reading on the classification, history, and distribution of one family of fresh water fishes, Cichlidae.
Today cichlids appear on every continent except Australia. They are very intolerant of salt, or even brackish water, so they did not migrate from continent to continent, nor even from river to river via ocean, and certainly not over land. Anyway, not until man started packing all kinds of different species all over the world via air and ocean freight.
Consider how the continent of Australia separated from Pangea before the rise of Mammalia, and marsupials became the dominant animals of Australia, while they were displaced by mammals everywhere else.
Every discovery made in the field of geology enhances the evidence for evolution.
Fish end up in lotsa places they got no business being. You have the faith that a fish that ain't where you think it should be, proves the theory of evolution. It's good to have faith. Ah, NO. Every fish is exactly where it should be and got there at the time it should have got there. It is all quite orderly and logical if one opens one's mind and does the research.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,569 Likes: 8
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,569 Likes: 8 |
That is your mistaken belief.
For an interesting study gather a few books discussing the drift of tectonic plates since the time of Pangea. And then do some reading on the classification, history, and distribution of one family of fresh water fishes, Cichlidae.
Today cichlids appear on every continent except Australia. They are very intolerant of salt, or even brackish water, so they did not migrate from continent to continent, nor even from river to river via ocean, and certainly not over land. Anyway, not until man started packing all kinds of different species all over the world via air and ocean freight.
Consider how the continent of Australia separated from Pangea before the rise of Mammalia, and marsupials became the dominant animals of Australia, while they were displaced by mammals everywhere else.
Every discovery made in the field of geology enhances the evidence for evolution.
Fish end up in lotsa places they got no business being. You have the faith that a fish that ain't where you think it should be, proves the theory of evolution. It's good to have faith. Ah, NO. Every fish is exactly where it should be and got there at the time it should have got there. It is all quite orderly and logical if one opens one's mind and does the research. The majority of the fresh water on the planet consists of small lakes. Those lakes can be remote, and are usually landlocked. The vast majority of these lakes have several species of fish occurring naturally within them. Maybe those fish evolved from e. coli. Hope that doesn't shake your faith in evolution.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 26,389 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 26,389 Likes: 6 |
Well most of those fish got there because their eggs attached to waterfowl and were flown in. Airmailed.
Btw Lake Superior contains over 10% of the entire worlds fresh water.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,927 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,927 Likes: 3 |
A lot of that happened.
Continental mountain divides are not in the same places they were five or ten or twenty million years ago. Heck, continents are not even in the same place they were then.
And lakes which are landlocked now, have not always been so.
For example what is now the Salt Lake in Utah, as recently as 15,000 years ago stretched into Idaho in the north, to the Southern border of Utah, and into Eastern Nevada. {Google Lake Bonneville}
We visited Ogden Utah a few years ago. It is simply mind boggling to look up at the mountains around Salt Lake and observe high water marks remaining fifty feet, and a hundred feet, and higher upon the mountain sides.
Hmmm, there might be a pretty good chance one would find the same species of fishes in all the tributaries which drained into this once massive lake.
Unless of course, one simply refuses to believe the Earth existed a million years ago.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,993
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,993 |
Without an absolute, guiding moral ideology, and I don't think secular humanists have that, you're left with the bad of human nature and none of the good. Why did the grand Marxist experiment degenerate into a country run by corrupt oligarchs in a very short time on the scale of human history? Mostly because they had no Constitution which limited the power of the Executive Branch. Absolute power does corrupt absolutely, whether that power be contained in a Theocracy or a Socialist Democracy. The Inquisition was lead and carried out by me with an absolute, guiding moral ideology, and it lead them to great evil. Not all atheist are Marxist. If you wanted to talk about secular government, you’d have to point to a government that built all its institutions on the teachings of Spinoza and Darwin and Einstein and Jefferson and Locke. America is the closest example. But because religion entered into it—bringing slavery and genocide and so on—I don’t think you can point to it. Atheism is a necessary condition for emancipation of the mind, but it’s not a sufficient one. You can free yourself from superstition and still end up a nihilist or a hedonist or a Stalinist. What’s innate in our species isn’t the fault of religion. But the bad things that are innate in our species are strengthened by religion and sanctified by it. The fact is, we are a mammalian species one half-chromosome away from [bleep], and it shows. Curing ourselves of religion is only a small step along the road. Fortunately, our brains seem to be evolving. (Paraphrasing Christopher Hitchens)
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,651 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,651 Likes: 1 |
That is your mistaken belief.
For an interesting study gather a few books discussing the drift of tectonic plates since the time of Pangea. And then do some reading on the classification, history, and distribution of one family of fresh water fishes, Cichlidae.
Today cichlids appear on every continent except Australia. They are very intolerant of salt, or even brackish water, so they did not migrate from continent to continent, nor even from river to river via ocean, and certainly not over land. Anyway, not until man started packing all kinds of different species all over the world via air and ocean freight.
Consider how the continent of Australia separated from Pangea before the rise of Mammalia, and marsupials became the dominant animals of Australia, while they were displaced by mammals everywhere else.
Every discovery made in the field of geology enhances the evidence for evolution.
Fish end up in lotsa places they got no business being. You have the faith that a fish that ain't where you think it should be, proves the theory of evolution. It's good to have faith. Sorry, that doesn't make sense.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,993
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,993 |
just 39 pages or so. can't stop now.
antelope sniper has asked what do we believe and why.
well, that's a start. i'll begin by sayin' i was taught evolution theory after i was taught about the old & new testament. so they came first and foremost. i was young at the time, btw. so, it was downloaded into a young brain, that was untaught and undeducated. but it was a beginning.
later, some goofy ph.d's started talking about all kinds of crazy stuff that i ain't never hurt tell uf before. one was evolution, and it just kept getting deeper and deepr.
so, what do i believe and why? about all i know is what i've been told. except for what questions i have raised sorting through the debris, odds & ends, and detritus. there is in fact very little that i believe that is in fact "mine" to believe. i got most my stuff from the cloud, so to speak. but, i continually sort, add levels of importance from low to high, and add probability to the unknown, bayesian i suppose. anyways, i try to keep my little island of consciousness afloat on a piece of flotsam believing that we'll see land sooner or later.
some say the only way to decide what is true is to vote on it. others disagree vehemently, almost violently even? Gus, you laid out what you've been told, but what do you Believe???? I'm not necessarily expecting you to express them in absolutes, what do you think is most likely, or even probable? What about these questions to you admit to just not knowing??
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 31,428
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 31,428 |
Time out. Marsupials are like an infraclass or maybe a clade within Mammalia and there's like 100 species in the Americas. Likely not directly descended from e coli.
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Then there is political ideology and the craving for power, wealth and status....
NIghthawk will try and tell you coercion methods used by the church in their pursuit of power, wealth and status ...stopped with Aquinas... 
What’s innate in our species isn’t the fault of religion. But the bad things that are innate in our species are strengthened
by religion and sanctified by it.
how many armies through history became emboldened after getting blessings and./or directives from the church before committing the most atrocious widespread death and destruction against the human race.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses
in return for protection to his own".
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them;
and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that
of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
"Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions
of the duperies on which they live.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned;
yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity".
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 31,428
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 31,428 |
That's some good Jefferson. Thanks. He'd dig evolution.
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
NIghthawk will try and tell you coercion methods used by the church in their pursuit of power, wealth and status ...stopped with Aquinas... That is the most ridiculous comment you've made so far and a very poor attempt at trolling. If you don't want a serious, intelligent conversation STFU. Seems like you worship Jefferson, the perfect human being. I understand his slaves loved him. Literally.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Without an absolute, guiding moral ideology, and I don't think secular humanists have that, you're left with the bad of human nature and none of the good. Why did the grand Marxist experiment degenerate into a country run by corrupt oligarchs in a very short time on the scale of human history? You don't think secular humans have guiding morals? There are many theories on the origin of morals, and religion is only one of them. Yes, empathy, social organization..... It's a long discussion but in a nutshell without some universal truths you're left with moral relativism. Which by definition can be rationalized into whatever you want it to be. So empathy and social organization is fine this week but may be inconvenient next week. And since the ends justify the means there's no impediment to rationalizing "the good" as we wish it to be today. It's a very self-centered or selfish thing. I decide what's right and that happens to fit my self interest - why not since I'm the ultimate arbiter. Made a good justification for eugenics for example. Which following the tradition of Sanger lead to Planned Parenthood or more accurately Planned Infanticide.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,651 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,651 Likes: 1 |
Without an absolute, guiding moral ideology, and I don't think secular humanists have that, you're left with the bad of human nature and none of the good. Why did the grand Marxist experiment degenerate into a country run by corrupt oligarchs in a very short time on the scale of human history? You don't think secular humans have guiding morals? There are many theories on the origin of morals, and religion is only one of them. Yes, empathy, social organization..... It's a long discussion but in a nutshell without some universal truths you're left with moral relativism. Which by definition can be rationalized into whatever you want it to be. So empathy and social organization is fine this week but may be inconvenient next week. And since the ends justify the means there's no impediment to rationalizing "the good" as we wish it to be today. It's a very self-centered or selfish thing. I decide what's right and that happens to fit my self interest - why not since I'm the ultimate arbiter. Made a good justification for eugenics for example. Which following the tradition of Sanger lead to Planned Parenthood or more accurately Planned Infanticide. What is it that makes something a 'Universal Truth?' A description with an example may help.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,750 Likes: 20
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,750 Likes: 20 |
Most people of your opinion classify the division in equidae into its three surviving member species (horse, donkey, and zebra) as an example of micro evolution. Do you consider this an example of micro evolution, i.e., the sort of evolution that you accept?
Just a slight correction on your taxonomy. Equidae is a Family Horse, Zebra, and Donkey are Genus I know this. If you accept it's a family, that means you accept they are related. Related means they have a common ancestor. So is this because you believe their subdivision to be an example of the sort of evolution you accept, i.e., micro evolution?
|
|
|
|
|
526 members (12344mag, 10Glocks, 007FJ, 06hunter59, 1234, 01Foreman400, 53 invisible),
2,402
guests, and
1,259
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,414
Posts18,489,049
Members73,970
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
