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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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You nailed it Max, just look at the 2 cases & physics is pretty simple to understand. But to hate one over the other makes no sense at all, owning both makes a lot of sense. Nitpicking over peanuts is crazy, go out & shoot 2 deer or 2 elk & see the difference, you won't, all things being equal.
90% of us own both, we might have a favorite but that's just Ford vs Chevy talk. I've always slightly leaned a little more towards the 44 but a Texas buddy has me using my 45's a bit more & I'm liking it. Bullet integrity & placement trumps caliber anyway.
Dick Right on!
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Sep 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
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You guys are making me want a 45 Colt again.......
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General
John Stark.
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Joined: Dec 2013
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Campfire Regular
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Of course the .45 walks away at the same pressure, it has more powder capacity. That kinda goes without saying. But in doing so, there is NO data and you've cut your safety margin from 100% to 80%. Which means, in effect, you're cheating just to claim a win and it's not at all a scientific approach. Equal pressure is not an even playing field if the context is standard six-shot Ruger single actions. What happens when we increase the pressure in the .44Mag to 80%? Same thing, it gains the advantage. It's going to go tit for tat until the guns blow. The .45 at 60,000psi, the .45 at 80,000psi.
Run them both at 50,000psi in appropriate guns and the advantage flips from 50-100fps in favor of the .44 to 50-100fps in favor of the .45. Another "BFD" result. I wrote this elsewhere but will post it again here:
"Now we're moving to 50,000psi data suitable only for Ruger Redhawks, Super Redhawks, Dan Wessons, BFR's, Freedom Arms and custom oversized cylinder Ruger single actions. Not for factory Super Blackhawks or any S&W. All the heavyweight Beartooth bullets I've been using in the .44 have two or three crimp grooves but the published Hodgdon data uses the top groove and is standard pressure. Nearly three years ago, I procured a Super Redhawk .44Mag and then a year later had my Bisley Super Blackhawk rebuilt with a linebored, oversized six-shot cylinder for the purpose of utilizing Brian Pearce's 50,000psi "Redhawk only" data. The long, large diameter cylinders of these guns allow us to not only seat the bullet further out but to use heavier powder charges. Loading the 330gr LFN, 355gr WLN and 405gr WLN over H110 at 100% load density I had the following results. I also chronographed the 340gr .44 and 360gr .454 Buffalo Bore loads. Both of which were VERY close to the Pearce "Redhawk only" data and also ~50,000psi. Loads were fired from 7½" Super Redhawks.
330gr at 1442fps
340gr at 1401fps (Buffalo Bore load; Pearce - 1405fps)
355gr at 1346fps
405gr at 1160fps
Compare these to the numbers from Pearce's "Redhawk only" .45Colt data:
335gr at 1511fps
360gr at 1433fps (Buffalo Bore load; Pearce - 1450fps)
400gr at 1314fps
Which pretty much confirms what I've always contended. That only when you reach the absolute potential of both cartridges and load the .45Colt beyond "Ruger only" levels, does the .45 pull ahead. This brings the .44Mag up to levels comparable to the custom .475's and .500's, in terms of sectional density and velocity. Those guns are considered to be at their peak with a sectional density of .25-.27 at 1350fps. We just don't have the diameter. It only lags 100fps behind the custom five-shot .45Colt's. That's a lot of performance for an $800 off the shelf Ruger that can be used effectively with any off the shelf ammo and light .44 Specials."
It's just silly to me that diehard .45 fans will go to such great lengths to keep the myth alive.
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Joined: Jun 2008
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I could take your last sentence, plug in .44 Magnum and apply it to you. :-)
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Joined: Dec 2013
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It only comes off that way because I have to argue with such indoctrination. I didn't start out trying to prove the .44 was better. I began this journey with the same pre-conceived notions everyone else has, with the intention of finding the truth. It just so happens that the truth is contradictory to popular belief, which is rooted in the writings of John Linebaugh. Inconvenient for those who apparently still NEED to believe in .45Colt magic. As I said, I probably have more .45's than your average .45 Kool Aid drinker and have a Dillon 650 that's never loaded anything but .45Colt. Would any of that be true if I was a blind .44 fanboy? It doesn't really matter why I believe what I believe anyway. The facts support it. The only "facts" that support these notions about the .45Colt having such a decided advantage over the .44Mag are written in a 30yr old, outdated article which is easily debunked by simply reading the Hodgdon data. AND I HAVE YET TO ENCOUNTER ANYONE WHO CAN PROVIDE LOAD DATA THAT CONFLICTS WITH MY STATEMENTS. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA. Black and white ![[Linked Image]](https://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/miscellaneous/Hodgdon%20data-b.jpg)
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Joined: Sep 2014
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Campfire Member
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Perhaps its the arbitrary pressure ceilings. The biggest downfall ive seen with most guys loading the 45 colt is the question of which loads will my gun handle? Is it the ruger six shot, then whats it safe to. How about a 5 shot custom, well what steel is it made from? How about an oversized 6 shot, or an oversized 5 shot? Just gets messy. I just know jack will tell you any ruger will handle 36k psi loads hamdily, but what again are those loads? For me the 44 is less messy per se but i just cut thru the bs and use a 454. Theyre all steong enough. Btw, there arent equivalent loads for a 45 colt, theyre actually sorta almost loads, kinda. Another thing i find interesting is where bullet diameter makes a difference vs speed seems to be an incredibly arbitrary thing.
Actually doing something usually changes a persons previously worthless opinion
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Campfire Outfitter
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You should have one, because "I like mine". I also like my two 44 Magnums and my 44 Special. Therefore, buy one of each or maybe two or more.
I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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You guys are making me want a 45 Colt again....... Sounds like maybe that itch should be scratched. It's for science!
Retired cat herder.
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Load 255gr 45 colts to 900fps and 240gr 44's to 1000-1100 and they both will do anything you would ever want. If I had to choose one, it would be my convertible bisley. I can plink with cheap 45 acp loads and stoke it with 45 colts for the woods. However, I do love my 7.5" super Blackhawk 44 with 240gr swc at about 1100fps
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Campfire Regular
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Load 255gr 45 colts to 900fps and 240gr 44's to 1000-1100 and they both will do anything you would ever want. Hey, speak for yourself - LOL! Way too mild for my taste! Hahahahaha!
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Campfire Outfitter
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Something no one has really mentioned, since the arguments have been vs caliber, is that there are really far more and better options in jacketed bullets in standard, light, and heavy weights for the 44 cal. If you don't cast your own, or prefer to shoot easily available jacketed bullets, there are far more out there for the 44.
That said, though I love my 44's, I'm more enamored with the 45 Colt, even at modest pressures and speeds. The bigger bore/bullet diameter makes a difference, both for shooter and for "shootee". Maybe I just got older. The 44's were a younger thing (including the 444). Now I prefer what I can do with the 45 cal (including rifles), and am working on putting together a bolt action Bushmaster that I can REALLY step on, to surpass what a lever 45-70 can do.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Joined: Mar 2008
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Campfire Tracker
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Most modern 45 Colts are happy with .451 jacketed or .452 cast bullets, which opens up a wide range of projectiles available for the 45 Auto to the 454/460 S&W.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Joined: Dec 2013
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Campfire Regular
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Perhaps its the arbitrary pressure ceilings. The biggest downfall ive seen with most guys loading the 45 colt is the question of which loads will my gun handle? Is it the ruger six shot, then whats it safe to. How about a 5 shot custom, well what steel is it made from? How about an oversized 6 shot, or an oversized 5 shot? Just gets messy. I just know jack will tell you any ruger will handle 36k psi loads hamdily, but what again are those loads? For me the 44 is less messy per se but i just cut thru the bs and use a 454. Theyre all steong enough. Btw, there arent equivalent loads for a 45 colt, theyre actually sorta almost loads, kinda. Another thing i find interesting is where bullet diameter makes a difference vs speed seems to be an incredibly arbitrary thing. The pressure ceiling isn't arbitrary. Through destructive testing, it was found that the Super Blackhawk failed at 80,000, while standard operating pressure was 40,000. A 100% safety margin. The .45's blew at 60,000. So to keep a similar margin of safety with the .45's the accepted maximum for large frame Ruger .45's is 30,000. Now how it was determined that the Redhawk/Super Redhkawk could handle 50,000psi is beyond me. Sure a large frame Ruger .45 will handle 36,000 but as I said, you're cutting 20% off the safety margin with unknown data and it's no longer an apples to apples comparison. Knowing what guns can handle what pressure is an issue with the .45Colt and we see questions on that subject constantly. Made even muddier with Ruger introducing mid-frame .45's. The issue that irritates me and one that is rarely talked about by the Kool Aid Krew, is that of chamber dimensions. The .45Colt is a 150yr old cartridge with somewhat ambiguous dimensions. Some guns have oversized throats, some have undersized. Virtually all have oversized chambers. Rifles are particularly bad. This is why I've always said the best .45's were built from .41's and .44's. Linebaugh has made a career out of building proper .45's out of something else. Other folks have built a lucrative side business reaming the throats of Ruger .45's. These issues don't affect newer cartridges and I never had a .44Mag that wasn't a shooter out of the box.
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Campfire Tracker
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I'll grant you that Craig. Ruger has been screwing the pooch on 45 Colt cylinder throats, for as long as I can remember.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Joined: Sep 2014
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Campfire Member
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Perhaps its the arbitrary pressure ceilings. The biggest downfall ive seen with most guys loading the 45 colt is the question of which loads will my gun handle? Is it the ruger six shot, then whats it safe to. How about a 5 shot custom, well what steel is it made from? How about an oversized 6 shot, or an oversized 5 shot? Just gets messy. I just know jack will tell you any ruger will handle 36k psi loads hamdily, but what again are those loads? For me the 44 is less messy per se but i just cut thru the bs and use a 454. Theyre all steong enough. Btw, there arent equivalent loads for a 45 colt, theyre actually sorta almost loads, kinda. Another thing i find interesting is where bullet diameter makes a difference vs speed seems to be an incredibly arbitrary thing. The pressure ceiling isn't arbitrary. Through destructive testing, it was found that the Super Blackhawk failed at 80,000, while standard operating pressure was 40,000. A 100% safety margin. The .45's blew at 60,000. So to keep a similar margin of safety with the .45's the accepted maximum for large frame Ruger .45's is 30,000. Now how it was determined that the Redhawk/Super Redhkawk could handle 50,000psi is beyond me. Sure a large frame Ruger .45 will handle 36,000 but as I said, you're cutting 20% off the safety margin with unknown data and it's no longer an apples to apples comparison. Knowing what guns can handle what pressure is an issue with the .45Colt and we see questions on that subject constantly. Made even muddier with Ruger introducing mid-frame .45's. The issue that irritates me and one that is rarely talked about by the Kool Aid Krew, is that of chamber dimensions. The .45Colt is a 150yr old cartridge with somewhat ambiguous dimensions. Some guns have oversized throats, some have undersized. Virtually all have oversized chambers. Rifles are particularly bad. This is why I've always said the best .45's were built from .41's and .44's. Linebaugh has made a career out of building proper .45's out of something else. Other folks have built a lucrative side business reaming the throats of Ruger .45's. These issues don't affect newer cartridges and I never had a .44Mag that wasn't a shooter out of the box. I dont care one if its 80% or 100% or whatever, but that buffalo bore load u referenced above is way beyond standard 36k psi. Just ask sundles. Its ok because its well within safety margins of the guns it was approved for but its nowhere near 100% safety margin unless the gun will handle 100k psi. Bottomline is any ruger large frame, bfr, dan wesson will handle a lifetime of 36k psi loads. That said craig, theres many ways to win the 44 is better or has advantages over the 45 colt and its good and easy arguments to make but final and absolute terminal performance isnt one of them. I still think its close enough.
Actually doing something usually changes a persons previously worthless opinion
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Campfire Outfitter
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Perhaps its the arbitrary pressure ceilings. The biggest downfall ive seen with most guys loading the 45 colt is the question of which loads will my gun handle? Is it the ruger six shot, then whats it safe to. How about a 5 shot custom, well what steel is it made from? How about an oversized 6 shot, or an oversized 5 shot? Just gets messy. I just know jack will tell you any ruger will handle 36k psi loads hamdily, but what again are those loads? For me the 44 is less messy per se but i just cut thru the bs and use a 454. Theyre all steong enough. Btw, there arent equivalent loads for a 45 colt, theyre actually sorta almost loads, kinda. Another thing i find interesting is where bullet diameter makes a difference vs speed seems to be an incredibly arbitrary thing. The pressure ceiling isn't arbitrary. Through destructive testing, it was found that the Super Blackhawk failed at 80,000, while standard operating pressure was 40,000. A 100% safety margin. The .45's blew at 60,000. So to keep a similar margin of safety with the .45's the accepted maximum for large frame Ruger .45's is 30,000. Now how it was determined that the Redhawk/Super Redhkawk could handle 50,000psi is beyond me. Sure a large frame Ruger .45 will handle 36,000 but as I said, you're cutting 20% off the safety margin with unknown data and it's no longer an apples to apples comparison. Knowing what guns can handle what pressure is an issue with the .45Colt and we see questions on that subject constantly. Made even muddier with Ruger introducing mid-frame .45's. The issue that irritates me and one that is rarely talked about by the Kool Aid Krew, is that of chamber dimensions. The .45Colt is a 150yr old cartridge with somewhat ambiguous dimensions. Some guns have oversized throats, some have undersized. Virtually all have oversized chambers. Rifles are particularly bad. This is why I've always said the best .45's were built from .41's and .44's. Linebaugh has made a career out of building proper .45's out of something else. Other folks have built a lucrative side business reaming the throats of Ruger .45's. These issues don't affect newer cartridges and I never had a .44Mag that wasn't a shooter out of the box. I've always heard the Redhawks were stronger than the Blackhawks.
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Joined: Sep 2014
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Actually doing something usually changes a persons previously worthless opinion
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Joined: Jun 2010
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Campfire Outfitter
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Thanks. I thought so. I have both here and the Redhawk is definitely more robust.
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That said craig, theres many ways to win the 44 is better or has advantages over the 45 colt and its good and easy arguments to make but final and absolute terminal performance isnt one of them. I still think its close enough.
I can understand Craig's frustration here. If you actually read what he's been saying, he isn't saying 44 is better. He's saying the two cartridges are close enough that it doesn't matter, and is pointing out a lot of the misinformation that gets regurgitated by the 45 Colt fans. He's completely right, but some of you guys keep acting like we all have to argue for one or the other and can't just enjoy both. CraigC, your posts on this are reasonable and well thought out, and your square approach without emotional bias or favoritism are refreshing. Hopefully some people can learn from what you've posted here.
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Campfire Ranger
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Yeah, but the problem is that it's like saying the 41 Mag (with the same weight bullets) is the same thing as a 44, hence the the 357 is too. Granted, discerning a 41 hole from a 44 is much more difficult to find in a critter than a 44 versus 45, or at least that's been my experience with all three.
What gets lost in the very well reasoned arguments is bore size matters to the sedate hangun speed levels; I have LBT OWC 38's that have larger meplats than some 44 designs I have shot game with. Two things: 1. The 44's still make larger wounds at lower velocity, contrary to all the meplat worship. 2. The 38 caliber has to be driven to the gills to maintain the accuracy at hunting ranges and to even get close to the wounding ability of the 44 bullet, even when plodding along and the 38 driven 300-500 fps faster...
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