and most certainly we don't know where we're going next.
it's been that way pretty much from the beginning.
man in his awareness & consciousness has used imagination to help himself along.
the fact that humans, but not the other apes can build cathedrals, go to the moon, etc. is no small thing.
That may be your interpretation, but I think we know all of those in pretty good detail, and most evolutionary biologists and educated people would agree.
and most certainly we don't know where we're going next.
it's been that way pretty much from the beginning.
man in his awareness & consciousness has used imagination to help himself along.
the fact that humans, but not the other apes can build cathedrals, go to the moon, etc. is no small thing.
That may be your interpretation, but I think we know all of those in pretty good detail, and most evolutionary biologists and educated people would agree.
i accept that you believe that we do. i take the position that we don't, and i also know that's pretty far out in a world of public schooled individuals.
actually, we don't have a clue, as the buddhists have long known.
we're making up the story the best we can, just like the ancient goat-herders sitting under the shade of the oak trees while their herds graze fresh grass beside the stream.
the fact we can go to the moon and send landers to Mars is no small event.
the high priests at NASA are consulting to set up the new branch of the military?
It may be an extremely rare event or it may be common, emerging wherever the conditions are right, complex chemistry interaction, energy input , etc....
In other words we (collectively) don't know a lot about it. Yet you seem sure that there is no Creator. I don't agree with Ringman but I fully understand why he makes his arguments for creationism. He's simply affirming his faith.
On the other hand I've often wondered why some argue so vehemently against the existence of a Creator. It's obvious that it can't be "proven" scientifically one way or the other, so the whole argument is pointless.
Seems to me that the argument agaist a Creator is not affirming anything, it's just an attempt to tear down the beliefs of others, to prove to people like Ringman that his faith is misguided.
In other words, a fools errand. Seems to be driven by envy of what others have.
We don't know x, therefore God is a really, really silly argument. A work in progress shouldn't make assumptions. Science examines and tests evidence, forms hypothesis and theories based on this process of discovery and does not say "well, dang, we don't know this, by golly, God must have done it"
Yes, as I said, the existence of a Creator can't be proven one way or the other scientifically, so why engage in sceintific arguments about it? Unless of course you're envious, and you want to try and take away what others have..
Claims are made on a public forum and claims are questioned. Nobody is forced to do it. Some profess their faith for Christianity, others for Islam or Hinduism....New Age or whatever. Christians question the claims of Islam, Hindus disagree with both, but atheists question all supernatural claims.
How life started is a different issue to life evolving. Life evolves. How life got started being more difficult to determine. It may be an extremely rare event, just the right conditions must be present, but we don't yet know what these are.
Which does not mean: we don't know this, therefore God.
The evolutionary theory of life cannot evolve unless it can first start. We have found one point of agreement though--and that we both know that evolution is totally useless theory when it come explaining the origins of life because it is a statistical impossibility.
How life got started in no way, shape or form negates the fact that life evolves in response to environmental conditions, genetic diversity, mutations, etc....
You still engage with the fallacy of ''we don't know x, therefore God.''
I argue from the common logic that all design has a designer. Please explain to me in real time when that is not true. Evolution prevents the mind from accepting some of the most basic forms of common sense.
That which has evolved is not designed. The initial assumption of design is false, which effects everything that follows.
When considering LB’s comment, a thought came to mind.....
There is a stage and the grand symphony of life is being played.... majesty....grandeur..... immensity....complexity ..... and the mystery of the unknown... that’s the creation and the world we see....
Man’s science “speaking to it” is like a small young child.... sitting way in the back...away from the stage....beating on a toy drum.
The child can only comprehend the drum.... he only knows that he beats it and it makes noise..... he cannot see nor comprehend nor appreciate the grand symphony.
Man, for all his beating on the drum cannot explain what is happening on the stage..... man cannot create anything.... not even a single cell....
The child somehow does not realize that even the drum he beats has been given to him....he is only fascinated by his own action of hitting the drum and making a noise.
Starting to sound like Gus....? ..... no more lunesta for me
Time for a second cup of coffee.
for a guy that converses with snakes, you got a lot to say for yourself.
So, Leroy.... care to explain your “converses with snakes” comment?
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
" Unless of course you're envious, and you want to try and take away what others have.."
What exactly do you have that others might want to take away?
I can't speak for smokepole, but it seems that what others desire to take away is ….truth.... and peace and assurance.
There is at least one avowed atheist on this site that has openly said that his desire is to prevent others from "believing the lie of Christianity." He loves to sow the seeds of doubt. I give the guy a bit of credit.... he openly states why he posts on these Christian topics.After all, this is the internet and it is the campfire, so have at it.
The thief comes to steal and destroy.
Some folks here are more involved in virtue signaling and some sort of juvenile "rah, rah, hooray for our team." They use a lot of rhetoric and few facts.
Your beliefs are your own business and if they bring you joy and comfort and harm no one, enjoy, nobody can take that away from you. But when faith/belief is made public, claimed to be truth, then naturally it is going to be questioned by those who don't see things that way, including other theists who hold different beliefs.
" Unless of course you're envious, and you want to try and take away what others have.."
What exactly do you have that others might want to take away?
I can't speak for smokepole, but it seems that what others desire to take away is ….truth.... and peace and assurance.
There is at least one avowed atheist on this site that has openly said that his desire is to prevent others from "believing the lie of Christianity." He loves to sow the seeds of doubt. I give the guy a bit of credit.... he openly states why he posts on these Christian topics.After all, this is the internet and it is the campfire, so have at it.
The thief comes to steal and destroy.
Some folks here are more involved in virtue signaling and some sort of juvenile "rah, rah, hooray for our team." They use a lot of rhetoric and few facts.
Your beliefs are your own business and if they bring you joy and comfort and harm no one, enjoy, nobody can take that away from you. But when faith/belief is made public, claimed to be truth, then naturally it is going to be questioned by those who don't see things that way, including other theists who hold different beliefs.
Well,of course.... your comment does not address the issue that victoro inquired about.
Btw.... Leroy, are you there?
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
.. when faith/belief is made public, claimed to be truth, then naturally it is going to be questioned by those who don't see things that way, including other theists who hold different beliefs.
TF49 considers himself one of those xtra special Christians, that are here to 'help' people find the 'truth' be they what he considers misguided theists or otherwise.
before the internet you would tend to find them on street corners clutching Bible atop a milk crate annoying the passing public with rants about, the blood of the lamb and fire/ brimstone.
Originally Posted by DBT
Your beliefs are your own business ..
some Christians are on a hell bent mission of making their personal beliefs your personal beliefs.
it even comes with threats parroted from Bible along the lines of , 'believe or else'
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
We all are faced with believing evidence on the basis of other verifiable witnesses.
Without the ability to cross examine the witnesses you speak of , Why would any rational reasonable person form a conviction that what they claim to have witnessed was true beyond all reasonable doubt?
and we only have an old biblical narrative , not signed affidavits from witnesses.
lets remember that Jesus was constantly not recognized;... by Mary at the tomb or by his close disciples when Jesus stood on the shore or on the road to Emmaus.
so much for the 'proof value' of eyewitness testimony.
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
As Luke records, Jesus resurrection was testified with many infallible proofs.
Proof is proof, its either proof or it aint proof- pure and simple, ..Why the need to refer to proof as fallible or infallible?
mere Evidence however, is a different matter.
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Faith believes what it cannot see or experience on the basis of evidence--faith is the substance (reality not theory) it is the evidence ( the confidence in the proofs) of things not (personally) seen.
What you personally consider proof is not necessarily such to others. When folks are desperate to believe something rather than being impartial, we all know the personal interpretation of evidence can become irrational and cause the 'truth' to go pear shaped.
Originally Posted by Thunderstick
Skepticism never allows a mind to make a sound interpretation of scripture--but honest inquiry can.
Interpretation of scripture varies from person to person, but like many others who differ to you, they also like to claim their own interpretation as superior.
since you consider your own view superior, you are not merely skeptical of other views but rather dismissive.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Claims are made on a public forum and claims are questioned. Nobody is forced to do it. Some profess their faith for Christianity, others for Islam or Hinduism....New Age or whatever.
Yep, there's a whole lotta Muslims, Hindus, and new agers posting here, I see what you mean.
" Unless of course you're envious, and you want to try and take away what others have.."
What exactly do you have that others might want to take away?
I can't speak for smokepole, but it seems that what others desire to take away is ….truth.... and peace and assurance.
There is at least one avowed atheist on this site that has openly said that his desire is to prevent others from "believing the lie of Christianity." He loves to sow the seeds of doubt. I give the guy a bit of credit.... he openly states why he posts on these Christian topics.After all, this is the internet and it is the campfire, so have at it.
The thief comes to steal and destroy.
Some folks here are more involved in virtue signaling and some sort of juvenile "rah, rah, hooray for our team." They use a lot of rhetoric and few facts.
Your beliefs are your own business and if they bring you joy and comfort and harm no one, enjoy, nobody can take that away from you. But when faith/belief is made public, claimed to be truth, then naturally it is going to be questioned by those who don't see things that way, including other theists who hold different beliefs.
Well,of course.... your comment does not address the issue that victoro inquired about.
I wasn't responding to 'victoro' - I must have missed what was said.
How life started is a different issue to life evolving. Life evolves. How life got started being more difficult to determine. It may be an extremely rare event, just the right conditions must be present, but we don't yet know what these are.
Which does not mean: we don't know this, therefore God.
The evolutionary theory of life cannot evolve unless it can first start. We have found one point of agreement though--and that we both know that evolution is totally useless theory when it come explaining the origins of life because it is a statistical impossibility.
How life got started in no way, shape or form negates the fact that life evolves in response to environmental conditions, genetic diversity, mutations, etc....
You still engage with the fallacy of ''we don't know x, therefore God.''
I argue from the common logic that all design has a designer. Please explain to me in real time when that is not true. Evolution prevents the mind from accepting some of the most basic forms of common sense.
That which has evolved is not designed. The initial assumption of design is false, which effects everything that follows.
Designed??
Really?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Claims are made on a public forum and claims are questioned. Nobody is forced to do it. Some profess their faith for Christianity, others for Islam or Hinduism....New Age or whatever.
Yep, there's a whole lotta Muslims, Hindus, and new agers posting here, I see what you mean.
I wasn't just talking about here, my remark was about claims made on public forums and questioned in public forums, be that here or anywhere else. That is the principle. It's not personal or restricted to this forum.
