Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Picking AR-15 Caliber

I am looking to buy or build an AR for hunting deer, coyotes, maybe even bear. I normally just bow hunt and this will be my first AR I live in Virginia so 5.56 is not legal for hunting here. I am current looking at 25-45 Sharpes, 350 Legend, or a AR 10 in a .243. Honestly I don't need an AR for hunting but if I am going to spend the money on a new rifle I want it to be something that the whole family will enjoy shooting and I feel an AR is the best way to go. Any and all information and suggestions are greatly appreciated and thanks in advance for taking the time to read and respond to a new member.

6.5 grendel. Low recoil, available ammo, accurate and plenty for deer to 300-400 yards.

And fits into a standard AR.

For HUNTING in an AR15 platform, as much as the Grendel can do past 300, (IME) the 6.8 is better on game inside 300, with comparable bullet weights, and especially in more hunting-friendly packages/barrel lengths. I’ve just seen more emphatic performance on deer and hogs with the 6.8 than the 6.5. The velocity quotient on it inside 300 seems to matter more than the lower velocity/high BC in the 6.5, until you get past where I’d be shooting game with either. However, the 30 HAMR might be better, since you’re throwing bear in there, but a 6.8/Barnes combo would probably be fine, as well. If you want more, the AR10 is the way to go, but they’re just heavy and unwieldy to me in the woods. Stalking fields, it doesn’t matter. Just my opinions.

Tag
This will be an interesting thread

I like the idea the whole family will enjoy in the original post
Hank

I went with the .450 Bushmaster to comply with Ohio deer hunting laws, and will change uppers as needed for other game. AR should be a good choice for a variety of game and a variety of shooters with the adjustable buttstock.

I think a 1-7 or 1-8 .223/5.56 and a 6.5 Grendel will cover the bases quite nicely for anywhere. Unless you live in Ohio or other straight-case state that is.

In Ohio, where I was raised and spent a good portion of my life, a lever action 357 magnum solved most deer hunting problems that required a straight walled case.

I think the Legend is Winchester’s attempt at a 357 mag in an at platform.

The 7.62x39 is another viable choice.

There is plenty of budget friendly ammo for range fun. Decent hunting ammo is also out there, or you can roll your own.

I've handloaded the 155gr Hornady ELD'M to 2140 fps in a 16" barrel. That probably beats the 30-30 at 200 yards, given the .440 BC. It delivers over 1000 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

Do you reload?

What's your budget?

I agree with David Walter... the 6.5 Grendel would be my choice (and is) for a versatile choice... you never know when that lifetime but shows up at 400+ yards... 😜

If I’m worried about the animal of a lifetime past 300 as even remotely possible, I ain’t carrying a Grendel, either. Just sayin. Inside 300, I’ll take a 110gr accubond at 2600-2700, all day long. If I hunted much in western/more open country, and I had to use an AR15, maybe I’d walk out the door with a Grendel more often. For mixed country with more thick cover than open, performance past 300 is rarely an AR requirement.

+1

^^^This^^^

I do have the ability to reload, and budget is topped out at $700 so I was thinking of doing a build on a Aero Precision lower.

Originally I was leaning more towards the 25-45 sharps because I think it would be a bit cheaper to reload. Anybody have any experience reloading this round?

Again, if you want an AR15 w/a 22”+ tube for eking out all the range possible, then the 6.5 is better. If you want a handier, lighter, shorter AR15 for hitting harder when hunting to 300, then the 6.8 is better. The 6.5 has some more efficient bullets, but the 6.8 is more efficient at launching its bullets. The closer you get to 400, the better the 6.5 can look. The further under 400 you get, the better the 6.8 gets.....especially when barrel length gets thrown in.

I do not, but use something close, a 6x45mm. Basically it's a 5.56 blown out to .243. It's the least I can perturb the standard 5.56 case and still be legal to hunt here in Colorado. It likes the 90gr NBT's and NAB with IMR-8208. It's a Blackhole barrel, which is now Columbia river arms.

The general idea that for game, there is any noticeable difference at normal ranges between the Grendel and the 6.8 is pretty wild IMHO. There really is none IMHO.

One can add the x39 into that mix too.

Pick the bullet that floats your boat and shoot.

Agreed. My AR is a .223/5.56 but I have shot my hog killing partner's 6.5G and it is a superior weapon. Still has low enough recoil to be effective for pulling multiple shots on multiple targets. Several targets are a fairly common occurrence with pigs.

How many times do you think you'll need to chime in about the 6.8 before anyone believes the hype? Better try a couple more at least...

The truth is, inside a few hundred yards the Grendel and 6.8 are more alike than different, enough that any difference comes down to bullet choice. Of course lots of the 6.8 fanboys still fall back on comparing the effect of 6.8 hunting bullets to 6.5 match bullets. Reality is either one does the job fine and shot placement is far more important than which of those cartridges are in the gun.

Thank you all so much for all of the advice and information y'all have definitely given me a lot to think about even somethings I didn't even know existed.

Yeah, try this one on for size then. Some guys are saying the 6.8 spc is better, try one that is necked down to 6mm. Its even mo betta. Others are talking about the x39 as well. Those are great options.

If you’d just read stuff 2x more than you thought you needed to, there might be better comprehension and your replies would make more sense.

....cuz the ‘truth’ is what the numbers and evidence reveal. Nobody s ‘hyping’ anything with regard to the 6.8. Is someone actually ‘hyping’ stuff with the Grendel?


‘Better’ is mostly subjective. Numbers ain’t. Necking down cartridges never makes them more efficient.

if necking down doesn't work then the 6.8 fails. Because its parent is the 30 Rem.....
6.8 works. So does the 6.5.

Of course there are folks that think the 270 kills better than the 30-06 while we know for sure that the 280 beats both hands down. Took magnifying glass and I can't recall how many gnats to figure that one out.

Carry on

Read again: efficient.

Efficient isn’t quite as critical with an ‘06 case as it is with stuff that fits in an AR15. It’s just a generality of load physics that explains why larger bore to case ratios often show more initial performance with less powder/pressure. Less efficiency doesn’t mean something can’t be better for a given purpose. It just means there’s sometimes a trade off. I’d actually like to play with a fast twist, trimmed 6x6.8 for giggles.....but it’d likely need >20” of barrel to get somewhere good.

Odd man out here, but for hunting purposes with no drama in the platform nor the killing, I'd be 300 Blackout running supersonics. Preference there is the 110 Barnes TTSX black tip. It simply works, with the emphasis on simply.

I'm with Hank on this one... Fairly new to the platform and digging it with farrr more time to theorize than shoot....

The 25-45 Sharps is easy to reload for. A simple run through the sizing die converts all my 5.56 LC found range brass into 25 Sharps brass. It shoots 87 grain Speer Hot Cors 2800 fps from an 18" barrel.

I also am shooting a 7.62x39 that does 125 Nosler ballistic tips at 2600 with a 16" barrel.

My current favorite pick is a 27 GPC from Mad Dog Weapon Systems. It is like an Ackley improved 6.8 SPC and can shoot 6.8 SPC if needed
I get 2675 with 130 grain bullets, 2800 with 115 grain Speer gold dots and 3100+ with 90 grain speer gold dots. 22" barrel.

6.5 Grendel and the rest aren’t even close. People want to make this hard. There’s only one of those that is light recoiling, good from muzzle to as far as one can shoot, has $14 a box easily available factory ammo for playing and $21 a box of excellent hunting ammo, very accurate, and fits in an AR15.









There is zero difference in terminal performance between them when using like bullets. One could lay out a hundred animals killed with both, with identical ranges, presentations, impact locations, and animal reaction written above the carcass and no one could tell which was which.

The 6.8 did have an advantage early on due to the bullets being designed specifically for that round for use against 200 pound mammals, however there are now bullets designed/optimized for the Grendel’s velocity range.


And the Grendel kills just fine beyond 300 yards on any deer walking.

I’ve got one, and those look like the best off the shelf option, too.....but I still don’t trust it as much as the faster, heavier 6.5/6.8 stuff, at least past 100-150......not saying I wouldn’t try it and expect it to work okay, in right conditions. Just normally pick one of the others for more versatility. For a 150 and in pig gun at night or the thick, it’s likely as good as most others.

Lol

I’ve seen plenty of difference in actual use on game, between the 6.8 and 6.5 at typical hunting ranges. I never said the 6.5 didn’t kill them, either. I said the 6.8 has shown more damage, which is often what I’d prefer for certain uses. Same bullet types and weight, also. It appears more about a velocity difference, under 150-200, which is where it matters to me for most use in an AR for hunting. I’ve laid plenty out and processed them from both. If one has to shoot an AR15 at deer past 300, then (by all means), soup up a long barreled Grendel. I have other stuff for that, better than either. I just prefer and have better experiences and confidence in other things then the Grendel version 6.5. Whatever gives you a warm fuzzy for what you do, go nuts. You can by SSA Accubonds for under $20/box and I bought a ton of xm68 for <$7 a box. It’s preference.

I haven't loaded that specific cartridge, but unless you get a screaming deal on dies you can load a hella lot of 6.5 or 6.8 for the difference in the cost of dies.
I shoot a 7.62x40 and I like it. But that's because I'm a yahoo with lots of 125gr 30cal bullets.

So what magic is .013” giving the 6.8 with bullets optimized for both?


What bullets in each, what animals, what distances?

Why would the 25-45 dies be so much more than any other dies? RCBS makes the dies. 25-45 uses the same bolt and magazines as 223/5.56. Only real change is the barrel. From the ballistics I see, under 300 yards they should do the job. Beyond 300 yards then you go with 6.5 Grendel, but it does require a bolt, and new magazine followers or new magazines. Lee also makes the dies, a 3 die set costs from $31-$38. Not bad.

Some states require your bullet size to be greater than .243, some greater than .25. Some states require straight wall pistol type cartridges, thus the 450 Bushmaster and now the 350 Legend.

300-400fps can show a difference. IF it was only 50-100 difference, and that’s what you see between a 6.5 and 6.8 in a 16” AR with the same weight bullets, then call the Grendel the winner. I’ve not safely seen it anywhere near that close. Since I’m not using it past 300, or with a longer than 16” in my hunting rigs, I’ll take the better numbers at 0-200. Better after that and using a longer barrel and higher BC bullet doesn’t concern me so much. My concerns may be the opposite of others’. ’

you will see the light one day, grasshopper

I have already. It’s why I use my 6.8 for MY type of hunting, more than my Grendel.

If all you want is the same damage from the Grendel,then pick the right bullet.

Both are the same for all purposes. Thats the point most of us are trying to make.

That said, I've killed lots of deer with 223 and out to almost 600 yards, so its always going to be the Indian and not the arrow.

As to 20 inch in 6/6.8... I run an 18. No clue what MV is. It kills just fine as far as I've tagged one with it which is about a bit past 300. I'venever had an issue with a dead deer with it, unless I hit an unseen limb... long story there on a gifted deer that just could not get shot.. LMAO. It wasn't the fact it was a 6/6.8. A 6.8 or 6.5 would have done the same exact thing.

Y'all get back to picking nits. I'm going to rest and hook em Tuesday and then take a ride and see if we can find a moose on short notice with a quick afternoon ride, and.... forbid... probably carrying a 30-30... LOL.

No flies on this either. Or the 950 FPS Lehigh rounds. Or the X39 with 125 ballistic tips.

LOTS of rounds work.

And don't let anyone tell you the bigger rounds do it quicker... 50 beowulf that we have does not kill deer any quicker than the right 223 bullet in the right place. I'm a bit more confident on the 50 for other things, like heavy hardcast for bear defense. But even running a flying ashtray like the barnes, that opens well on top of it, most deer are just going to run a bit. 223 or 50 or in between.

Have I ever mentioned how far a doe I shot with 50 bmg ran... with NO blood trail whatsoever and a hole through both lungs....lets just say appx 200 yards and it was easier to follow the path of the bullet into the ground through the brush than to find the doe. Seriously.

Have I said the 257 wtby sometimes fast 100 ttsx and 80 ttsx, now and then those deer go 200 yards plus. Same shot placement as others that rarely make 50.

have I said that 10mm Glock deer rarely make it out of sight...

You simply never know.

The legend would not make it here, even though we are straight wall cartridge country. Caliber sizes allowed for us are .357- .50cal. The .450 Bushmaster will handle anything 300yds or less, I'm still thinking 5.56 for longer ranges.

This one made it nearly 20 feet, fell over and took a dirt nap.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...s/13769535/450bushmaster-ar#Post13769535

just to add one small point, OP mentioned "fun for the family". One thing the Grendel has going for it is cheap Wolf plinking/blasting ammo.. A nice option to have that some cartridges don't have.

Exactly. Bulk ammo is cheap cheap.

I always see this mentioned as a big plus for the 6.5G, do y’all really shoot steel cased wolf ammo frequently? I have to imagine it shoots like crap and isn’t particularly usuable at longer ranges (am I incorrect here?)

Personally any Grendel I’m going to build or own will have a mid to premium quality SS barrel on it. I’m not shooting steel cased anything in a rifle like that.

If you want to plink with cheap bulk ammo, isn’t 5.56/223 the way to go ? (with brass cased FMJ or HP bullets)

I’m not arguing against 6.5, I just got another myself. But the cheapest thing I’ll be trying is Hornady American gunner..and will most likely be sticking with 123sst for pigs.

Yep.

For cheap plinking, I'm thinking 5.56.

While yes, 5.56 is the answer for training/practice, what will a steel cased round do to a stainless barrel?

I suppose I’ve read somewhere it’s harder on a rifle than brass, though I will admit I have no firsthand knowledge of that. Please do correct me if that’s misinformation

Otherwise I just don’t have much use for blasting ammo in non reloadeable cases, but I do understand that others do.

Walter,

Steelcased does nothing to the barrel. It “can be” harder in extractors, but that’s it. By harder on extractors we’re talking about crappy lacquered coated, sticky cases reducing extractor lifespans by around 20-30%. It’s a $2 part.

Some steel cased ammunition uses bi-metal bullets which can reduce barrel life by about 20-30% again, however the cost difference is huge. Even factoring in barrel wear for blasting ammo, GOOD steel cased is way better for $ per shot. Good steel cased is typified by Hornady’s steel match. Have shot hundreds of thousands of it, with no noticeable issues over normal brass cased.


I do not shoot steel cased Grendel, but only because volume practice is done with 5.56mm’s. No need to shoot 20,000 rounds of Grendel a year.

I bought a cheap AR15 upper from PSA in 6.5 Grendel as a bad weather, rainy day gun when I didn't want to take out one of my more expensive wood stocked rifles. To say I was impressed was an understatement. If I had bought the Grendel first, I probably wouldn't have bought a .224 Valkyrie. I reload and the Grendel seems to like about any powder appropriate for the caliber. I settled on 748 simply because I have a lot on hand. I adjusted the gas block last week for my suppressor and am really looking forward toward deer season again with it. Took two deer last year, one a nice buck and seemed to have same effect as my 7mm-08 I generally use, bang-flop. No real recoil and pleasant to shoot in an AR. There are other calibers just as good, but none any really better that will fit in an AR15 magazine. As far as building an upper, you may check out PSA when they have one of their sales, hard to build your own a lot cheaper. Not bad products for the money.

Hot Damnn!

Good info, appreciate it. I won’t discount Hornady steel match for cheap ammo to practice or add to the stash

I only have certain guns where plinking/steel case is on the menu, and they’re all my 5.56 dcl stuff. My ‘hunting’ and target ARs, I’m usually only worried about accurate factory stuff and hand loads. Except for maybe one in 300 that the wife likes to bang away with. LOL

Not all steel cased is innaccurate. Hornady learned how to make that work years ago in a shortage.... just because its steel cased don't assume its FMJ type ball ammo accurate only..FWIW.

Heres the bottom line
The AR platform is very useful
If you are here is straight wall country the 450 is very effective, recently I picked up a 50Beowulf its legal here I may try it

If you can use x39 (my fav plinker) 6.5 or 6.8 they work very will also

I like the fact that more folks are using the platform for sporting purposes
This surely makes it more "legit" and maybe more out of the BS cross hairs of antis

Hank

I shoot the Wolf 6.5 Grendel steel case ammo often for cheap plinking. I suppose it depends on the barrel, but mine shoots it fairly accurately; nobody's going to win any matches with it but it does a lot better than cheap 193 or 855 in any of my 5.56 rifles. That's in a good quality stainless barrel (I machined from a Green Mountain blank, so you can't buy one, sorry); if and when it wears out, I'll make or buy another one.

I have heard other people say the same ammo doesn't shoot well for them, so maybe I got lucky or maybe it's because I used a good barrel. YMMV of course, but the availability of <$6/box Grendel ammo is a real advantage for me.

If you're seeing 300-400 fps difference between the 6.8 and 6.5 with similar bullet weights and barrel lengths, you're either loading one way hotter than the other, or something else is wrong. 50-100 fps is the realistic difference between the two when comparing apples to apples. Do you actually own a chronograph, or are these numbers you got off the 68 forums?

Your comments are pretty typical of the 6.8 kool-aid drinker crowd; reality is a bit different when you break away from that hardcore bias toward a particular headstamp.

can't imagine there's enuf diff between the 6.5, 6.8 or the 300 hamr to really give one an edge over the other in the field. but if you're building your own, perhaps other factors mite tip the scale. i'm shooting the hamr right now and don't plan to change anytime soon. the advantage i see, if you want to call it that, is all 556 parts. no special bolt or magazine. only downside, again.. if you want to call it that, is you won't be running over to academy to grab a box of shells. you're buying your ammo from wilson combat or loading your own. but the wc ammo is very affordable so i give the nod to the hamr.

Over the years I have learned you have credibility, You have killed a few
Hank

FWIW, I have (2) chronos. I’ve seen a minimum of 2650 for 110 NAB loads in a 16” barrel, and the SSA factory stuff I have a good stash of ran just north of 2700 when chronod in my 16” 3R ARP BBL. 90s were 2950-3k, IIRC. The milspec is/was 2600, w/2500 as a min acceptable in a16” for 110-115gr. Due to bolt/case head parameters, it’s likely safer to run the 6.8 to 58k+ in ARs, vs stuff with a larger case head diameter. I’ve seen some folks indicating Grendel hand loads of 100gr bullets hitting 2400-2500 in 16” barrels, but the factory stuff and other’s hand loads I’ve actually seen chronod were 2-300 FPS less. If what I’ve seen is an anomaly, and safe Grendel stuff is actually hitting 2500-2750 from 16” barrels with anything over 90gr, then you can keep calling me a ‘koolaide drinker’. However, I see more insecurity/hype over the Grendel, anytime someone points out differences in anything under 400 yards and 20” of barrel. The differences aren’t earth shattering, but they exist. The differences take nothing away from what either cartridge was designed to do, or do well. I never said there couldn’t be custom loading, bullet selection, etc to mitigate/modify the typical, from either. They were just created to be slightly different.

From that perspective (normal AR hunting), the WC HAMR is intriguing as (possibly) the simplest current solution to good game performance at typical hunting ranges.

i've shot most of the hamr ammo offerings under 150gr. i like the lighter bullets for the speed so i don't have to be quite as good a shot on running targets. the 110gr i'm shooting now are well over 2700 fps per the labradar.

bill wilson prefers the 130gr and up for hogs. he's shot plenty. he just got back from a south african safari where he tested mostly 150 bullets on larger game...

ok... maybe i got a little creative with this pic

so... boatboy. i have a little experience in the small window i see out of, but credibility.... nahhhh

I do believe, sir, you have figured out which end the bullet comes out....

Gotta love trick photography!

So to put it simply, you have not actually compared similar bullet weights and barrel lengths yourself; you're going by guesses and some other 6.8 fanboy's claims of Grendel velocities. Got it.

FWIW your Grendel numbers above are way off the mark. They're so far off that I think you've either believed someone else's bad info, or gotten the details mixed up.
For example, even the cheap Wolf steel case 100gr does 2425 fps from my 14" barrel, and right about 2500 in a 16". A 123gr does 2360 fps in my 12.5" Grendel, which is so close to a 120gr 6.8 12.5" as to be insignificant.

Of course, you gotta set the kool aid aside to think about those numbers...

Apparently you didn’t care to read what I wrote or don’t care what was actually stated? Why so defensive? My chronos, others’ rifles and loads. Personally. There. Logged. Pulled the trigger some too. LOL
Use of my own was before those work ups/checks and I don’t remember/didn’t care after testing/using 6.8 loads in my particular package. Why should I? One was better for the intended purpose I needed.

You’re also missing the math: a factory 1002500 in a 16” is still 200+fps slower than a factory 1102700+ in a 16”. 12.5” is irrelevant in all of that, outside of pistols or a $200 stamp and wait. That’s not ‘typical’ hunting with either. It’s also not the next rifle or the next load. There’s variables. I never said what I witnessed was all that’s possible. I just saw enough to choose one for some things over others. I can shoot whatever in an AR that I want. I’ve got no dog in anyone’s fight or koolaide. The numbers and my use show I made the better choice for what I do. Yours can be different all you want it to, and better for your own purposes. You can have your own flavor of koolaide.

There is shart in your kool aid too.

Nice work on those running hogs....is that you behind the trigger on this vid??

Yeah I read what you wrote. See above. You're either full of crap or got the details all wrong.

You're claiming actual 16" Grendel velocities are ~2200 fps for a 100gr bullet. LOL, that's so far off you should be embarassed. Even a 12.5" barrel will do better than that with anything under 140gr.

if the vid is black hot, im the shooter. my buddy shoots white hot and sometimes i add some of his kills. ever since i started using thermal i started videoing. sometimes i have to check the vid to see why i missed and realize i'm all over the place. but mostly i just like them for entertainment. here's another one that i was compiling, but i got confused where i left off and duplicated some hunts, but kinda cool none the less...

2500 claimed -200 is 2300. What we were shooting, in the rifles we were shooting them in, were only hitting 200-300 FPS less than the published velocity on their boxes, with ‘similar’ weight bullets (theirs could’ve been 120s vs the 110s in 6.8) and the 6.8s next to them were running 2700+ in 16”. I GUARANTEE I forgot some irrelevant details, likely on purpose....due their lack of relevance. The 6.8s performed better than the 6.5s, by the numbers, at the ranges I cared about and the uses I had in mind. If you’re getting into what one some may do with handloads/powders to get closer, that’s a different animal. As I said, I hadn’t seen it, so it’s entirely possible. Then again, I can also get some crazy numbers out of a little 357 max case and 180s, that make it far harder hitting than either, inside 200.....but I was into that and worked at it. The 6.8 was a simple answer I didn’t have to work too hard for that fit my bill better than others. My buddy likes his Grendel better, and he kills stuff, and he could care less what I think about my 6.8s. You act like I told you your daughter was too fat to be a cheerleader. Nobody has to agree on cartridges. There’s plenty to go around.

You got schooled again.

Well I can say that I am not going to choose the 6.5 Grendel or the 6.8 SPC. I am probably going to go with 6x45mm or 25-45 sharps

I have shot two deer with my 25 /45 Sharps and it killed them plenty dead with Speer 87 HC at 2800 mv. So I figure the 6.5 and 6.8 should be just as good too.

My 18" BCA Grendel barrel will do 2500 with a 120 factory fusion. Most of my reloads do 2450 with 123's. My 20" Green mountain Grendel group buy barrel does 2250 with 140 Hornady interlocks.

My 22" 27 GPC does 2660 with 130 Speer bt's. It does 3175 with 90 Speer gold dots.

SO, who makes the best 7.62x39 upper?

By "best" I mean best performance for the money spent?

AR-15 type upper, I mean.

Should start another thread on that one.