|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344
Campfire Tracker
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344 |
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 67,101 Likes: 12
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 67,101 Likes: 12 |
Still older than the 'begats'
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,921
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,921 |
Stupid scientists! Universe is only 10,000 years old!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337 |
i just hate it when the plus and minus level of error can exceed 1 billion years.
just one free trip around the sun each year is a long time.
i sometimes wonder if we will ever come to a consensus?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,192
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,192 |
Doesn't matter. It existed when I got here, and I expect it to be doing fine when I exit.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859 |
And you have the real story, instead of fairy tales, I take it? Care to tell us of your scientific studies and conclusions?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859 |
And yes, I do call that science....you study and gather as much info as you can and try to draw conclusions from that. As new information or technology comes on the scene, you go back and look at the previous work to see if it can't be improved. If it can, you do so, and publish the new information. That's how its supposed to work. It's not perfect, but it's the only approach that makes sense.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,060 Likes: 3
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,060 Likes: 3 |
That is a big error.
How close was your estimate?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859 |
And yes, I do call that science....you study and gather as much info as you can and try to draw conclusions from that. As new information or technology comes on the scene, you go back and look at the previous work to see if it can't be improved. If it can, you do so, and publish the new information. That's how its supposed to work. It's not perfect, but it's the only approach that makes sense. Is this how the search for making life works? I mean scientists have been failing for fifty, sixty, or maybe by now seventy years. We are talking about intelligent people. In fact very educated people, at that. Not blind random chance, and they have only proven life comes from life.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859 |
And yes, I do call that science....you study and gather as much info as you can and try to draw conclusions from that. As new information or technology comes on the scene, you go back and look at the previous work to see if it can't be improved. If it can, you do so, and publish the new information. That's how its supposed to work. It's not perfect, but it's the only approach that makes sense. Is this how the search for making life works? I mean scientists have been failing for fifty, sixty, or maybe by now seventy years. We are talking about intelligent people. In fact very educated people, at that. Not blind random chance, and they have only proven life comes from life. That may ultimately prove to be true, and I'd have zero issues with that. However, knowledge is not gained by saying "this seems to be true, let's stop looking at it altogether and just assume its right"...they obviously didn't stop looking at the age of the universe just because previous scientists thought they had the numbers right, and that's the way science should work.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344
Campfire Tracker
|
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344 |
i just hate it when the plus and minus level of error can exceed 1 billion years.
just one free trip around the sun each year is a long time.
i sometimes wonder if we will ever come to a consensus? Ha! You got it! Plus or minus a billion.... not science.
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 10,497
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 10,497 |
Just a rough estimate; give or take a couple billion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859 |
And yes, I do call that science....you study and gather as much info as you can and try to draw conclusions from that. As new information or technology comes on the scene, you go back and look at the previous work to see if it can't be improved. If it can, you do so, and publish the new information. That's how its supposed to work. It's not perfect, but it's the only approach that makes sense. Is this how the search for making life works? I mean scientists have been failing for fifty, sixty, or maybe by now seventy years. We are talking about intelligent people. In fact very educated people, at that. Not blind random chance, and they have only proven life comes from life. That may ultimately prove to be true, and I'd have zero issues with that. However, knowledge is not gained by saying "this seems to be true, let's stop looking at it altogether and just assume its right"...they obviously didn't stop looking at the age of the universe just because previous scientists thought they had the numbers right, and that's the way science should work. "They" dated" the earth by a meteorite called "Allende". And we, as creationists, are not suppose to challenge their blind assumptions. Scientists, both creationists and evolutionists, are just like the garbage man and the logger. They have presuppositions and try to find "facts" to support their presuppositions. Like I have challenged so often, name one of creationist Ph.D. (no theologians or philosophers) who, after earning their doctorate, became an evolutionists and I will give you a list of evolutionists who became creationists. Unbiased lab and field work tends to support creation and a curse. That's why they switch.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,280
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,280 |
And yes, I do call that science....you study and gather as much info as you can and try to draw conclusions from that. As new information or technology comes on the scene, you go back and look at the previous work to see if it can't be improved. If it can, you do so, and publish the new information. That's how its supposed to work. It's not perfect, but it's the only approach that makes sense. Is this how the search for making life works? I mean scientists have been failing for fifty, sixty, or maybe by now seventy years. We are talking about intelligent people. In fact very educated people, at that. Not blind random chance, and they have only proven life comes from life. That may ultimately prove to be true, and I'd have zero issues with that. However, knowledge is not gained by saying "this seems to be true, let's stop looking at it altogether and just assume its right"...they obviously didn't stop looking at the age of the universe just because previous scientists thought they had the numbers right, and that's the way science should work. Yes, it would seem that when the data provided by science changes it is correct to change theory and then the appropriate conclusions along with it. I did get a wry grin when there was reference in the article about how the older date was “settled science.” In our day and age, we know so little that there is no such thing as “settled science.” Only the ignorant among us would think that.
Last edited by TF49; 09/12/19.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,280
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,280 |
And you have the real story, instead of fairy tales, I take it? Care to tell us of your scientific studies and conclusions? The real story is in Genesis. You should read it. You read it and tell me what it says about the age of the earth. Further, you should understand.... and maybe you do, the Bible is about God and Man....it is not, nor intended to be an primer on astrophysics and origins of the universe. The Bible is about something much more important and much relevant than the origin of the universe. But, if you don’t get it, well the, you don’t get it.... at least not yet......Keep after it.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859 |
And yes, I do call that science....you study and gather as much info as you can and try to draw conclusions from that. As new information or technology comes on the scene, you go back and look at the previous work to see if it can't be improved. If it can, you do so, and publish the new information. That's how its supposed to work. It's not perfect, but it's the only approach that makes sense. Is this how the search for making life works? I mean scientists have been failing for fifty, sixty, or maybe by now seventy years. We are talking about intelligent people. In fact very educated people, at that. Not blind random chance, and they have only proven life comes from life. That may ultimately prove to be true, and I'd have zero issues with that. However, knowledge is not gained by saying "this seems to be true, let's stop looking at it altogether and just assume its right"...they obviously didn't stop looking at the age of the universe just because previous scientists thought they had the numbers right, and that's the way science should work. "They" dated" the earth by a meteorite called "Allende". And we, as creationists, are not suppose to challenge their blind assumptions. Scientists, both creationists and evolutionists, are just like the garbage man and the logger. They have presuppositions and try to find "facts" to support their presuppositions. Like I have challenged so often, name one of creationist Ph.D. (no theologians or philosophers) who, after earning their doctorate, became an evolutionists and I will give you a list of evolutionists who became creationists. Unbiased lab and field work tends to support creation and a curse. That's why they switch. Why are you going on about PHD'S and theologians and creationism all of a sudden? The OP posted an article about how several new dating methods may(or may not) be more accurate and if so could change the commonly accepted age of the universe. He believes that this is not science, although he didn't offer any scientific theories of his own. I stated that this was indeed science being done properly, since they admitted new technology and new evidence and thus were prepared to revise the earlier estimates if it proves out. Now suddenly you want to arque about which side has more converts? I don't give a schitt who has more converts.....you realize people will hold onto the most ridiculous, easily disproven and downright idiotic beliefs even under threat of death,right? I don't care what people believe when it comes to science, unless they have some decent evidence to back it up.Its not a contest, and I'm not saying one side is right and the other wrong, I'm simply saying that this is how science is done, it's not a mark against them.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,876 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,876 Likes: 4 |
And yes, I do call that science....you study and gather as much info as you can and try to draw conclusions from that. As new information or technology comes on the scene, you go back and look at the previous work to see if it can't be improved. If it can, you do so, and publish the new information. That's how its supposed to work. It's not perfect, but it's the only approach that makes sense. And until that time, you (not you specifically) declare the current belief to be absolute and deny any belief to the contrary.
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 16,076
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 16,076 |
Are these the same scientists that keep telling us that global warming will destroy the planet in 20 years?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 27,091
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 27,091 |
Global warming or Climate change is what the democrats will use to steal all your money.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,169 Likes: 1
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,169 Likes: 1 |
The only thing that I am absolutely confident in when it comes to this subject is that all of the "experts" are wrong.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,110 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,110 Likes: 2 |
And yes, I do call that science....you study and gather as much info as you can and try to draw conclusions from that. As new information or technology comes on the scene, you go back and look at the previous work to see if it can't be improved. If it can, you do so, and publish the new information. That's how its supposed to work. It's not perfect, but it's the only approach that makes sense. Is this how the search for making life works? I mean scientists have been failing for fifty, sixty, or maybe by now seventy years. We are talking about intelligent people. In fact very educated people, at that. Not blind random chance, and they have only proven life comes from life. That may ultimately prove to be true, and I'd have zero issues with that. However, knowledge is not gained by saying "this seems to be true, let's stop looking at it altogether and just assume its right"...they obviously didn't stop looking at the age of the universe just because previous scientists thought they had the numbers right, and that's the way science should work. "They" dated" the earth by a meteorite called "Allende". And we, as creationists, are not suppose to challenge their blind assumptions. Scientists, both creationists and evolutionists, are just like the garbage man and the logger. They have presuppositions and try to find "facts" to support their presuppositions. Like I have challenged so often, name one of creationist Ph.D. (no theologians or philosophers) who, after earning their doctorate, became an evolutionists and I will give you a list of evolutionists who became creationists. Unbiased lab and field work tends to support creation and a curse. That's why they switch. Now that's funny!
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,222 Likes: 23
Campfire Oracle
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,222 Likes: 23 |
Jesus. (Pun there)
Not this sshit again.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Still older than the 'begats' How long is a begat anyway? So the universe may be 11.7 billion years old instead of 13.7 billion years old. Or it might not be. My life is destroyed!
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 59,104 Likes: 17
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 59,104 Likes: 17 |
Are these the same scientists that keep telling us that global warming will destroy the planet in 20 years? In general, yes.
Paul
"I'd rather see a sermon than hear a sermon".... D.A.D.
Trump Won!, Sandmann Won!, Rittenhouse Won!, Suck it Liberal Fuuktards.
molɔ̀ːn labé skýla
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,343
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,343 |
And yes, I do call that science....you study and gather as much info as you can and try to draw conclusions from that. As new information or technology comes on the scene, you go back and look at the previous work to see if it can't be improved. If it can, you do so, and publish the new information. That's how its supposed to work. It's not perfect, but it's the only approach that makes sense. Bravo, at least one person here seems to understand "the structure of scientific revolutions" and paradigm shift.
Last edited by Squidge; 09/12/19.
Remember why, specifically, the Bill of Rights was written...remember its purpose. It was written to limit the power of government over the individual.
There is no believing a liar, even when he speaks the truth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,110 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,110 Likes: 2 |
Still older than the 'begats' How long is a begat anyway? So the universe may be 11.7 billion years old instead of 13.7 billion years old. Or it might not be. My life is destroyed! Yeah, a billion here, a billion there, pretty soon we are talking about "A Brief History of Time".
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
The Sun is predicted to become a red giant, expand, and make a cinder of urth in 5.4 billion years. If they're off on that at the same rate and it's only 4.6 billion years I'm gonna be pissed!!! 
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,110 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,110 Likes: 2 |
The Sun is predicted to become a red giant, expand, and make a cinder of urth in 5.4 billion years. If they're off on that at the same rate and it's only 4.6 billion years I'm gonna be pissed!!! Yer gonna be toast!
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,222 Likes: 23
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,222 Likes: 23 |
Science is wrong because
Jesus.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859 |
And you have the real story, instead of fairy tales, I take it? Care to tell us of your scientific studies and conclusions? The real story is in Genesis. You should read it. You read it and tell me what it says about the age of the earth. Further, you should understand.... and maybe you do, the Bible is about God and Man....it is not, nor intended to be an primer on astrophysics and origins of the universe. The Bible is about something much more important and much relevant than the origin of the universe. But, if you don’t get it, well the, you don’t get it.... at least not yet......Keep after it. I have indeed read it. Like you say, it's not intended to be a primer on astrophysics and the origins of the universe. I think most of it is intended to be allegorical. I too agree that there are far more important issues at hand than the alleged age of the universe. I still find all kinds of scientific investigation interesting though, and I don't understand disparaging folks who are trying to figure things out to the best of their ability just because they admit that their earlier theories or calculations may have been incorrect. It should be encouraged. I have far more respect for someone,scientist or otherwise, who can modify their thinking and opinions based on new information than someone who is so sure they have all the answers that they refuse to even honestly consider a new idea.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,110 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,110 Likes: 2 |
Genesis is the bomb. An over-view if you will. Thumb-nail sketch. Pretty good for a bunch of ignorant theorists not conversant with scientific method.
We are just filling in the fine-print. Subject to new input.
Last edited by las; 09/12/19.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800 |
2 billion out of say 14 billion, that's only 14% error. Better than being completely wrong.
Last edited by mauserand9mm; 09/12/19.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,110 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,110 Likes: 2 |
2 billion out of say 14 billion, that's only 14% error. Better than being completely wrong. If it is an error. Stay tuned.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800 |
Creationists are out by about 14 billion years.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 4,354
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 4,354 |
Creationists are out by about 14 billion years. They always miss that point I say this one only goes 12 pages.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800 |
They miss a lot of points (and facts), but I don't want to make any trouble...
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Imagine that ,..scientists humble enough to admit error, but wide and varied opinions by billions of Christians \on interpretation of Scripture
remain just that for 2000 + yrs and counting..
but some christians tell you what you believe don't matter,.. its what God thinks of you that matters,
unfortunately no christian knows what God really thinks about them except that they are wicked and unworthy.
but that don't prevent many having deluded high opinions of themselves.
its hilarious the matter of the divinity of Jesus was 'finally settled' in 325 A.D. through a council voting system
fraught with vote stacking, threats and bribery.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,110 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,110 Likes: 2 |
Creationists are out by about 14 billion years. They always miss that point I say this one only goes 12 pages. first thing you have posted that I agree with. I'm worried..... about me.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976 |
Nope. You just have a reading comprehension problem. Here's a couple of paragraphs from the linked article: Jee and outside experts had big caveats for her number. She used only two gravitational lenses, which were all that were available, and so her margin of error is so large that it’s possible the universe could be older than calculated, not dramatically younger. Harvard astronomer Avi Loeb, who wasn’t part of the study, said it an interesting and unique way to calculate the universe’s expansion rate, but the large error margins limits its effectiveness until more information can be gathered.So, what's being reported is a new way of making the measurement, along with initial results, possible error bands, and an acknowledgement that more data needs to be gathered to refine the measurement. Yes, this is now science is done.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
How can you sufficiently explain science to folks who's minds are trapped in the paradigm of backward ancient myths and superstitions?
iTs no coincidence that folks with such subjective fabled religious beliefs often compound them with modern day conspiracy beliefs.
They fear science aims to undermine Bible and thus likely the work of the devil...computer barcodes and Mother energy drink = tools of the devil.
if only they could round up the people responsible and burn at the stake , hang them or drown them like witches in Salem.
of course where desperate prayers aren't working to save their bacon..they don't mind using the evil sciences of modern medicine drugs,
cartridge propellants and polymer guns.
Does anyone really know of one Christian that prefers to start praying before the idea of reaching for his gun?
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 18,994
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 18,994 |
“In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it.
It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.” Carl Sagan
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,110 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,110 Likes: 2 |
How can you sufficiently explain science to folks who's minds are trapped in the paradigm of backward ancient myths and superstitions?
iTs no coincidence that folks with such subjective fabled religious beliefs often compound them with modern day conspiracy beliefs.
They fear science aims to undermine Bible and thus likely the work of the devil...computer barcodes and Mother energy drink = tools of the devil.
if only they could round up the people responsible and burn at the stake , hang them or drown them like witches in Salem.
of course where desperate prayers aren't working to save their bacon..they don't mind using the evil sciences of modern medicine drugs,
cartridge propellants and polymer guns.
Does anyone really know of one Christian that prefers to start praying before the idea of reaching for his gun? Now I'm really worried about me.... 
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
Science deals with research and testing, not divine revelation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
DBT,,, If we you look at past ancient civilizations, divine revelation often came through the influence of hallucinogens. ultimately it comes back to brain chemistry science trial and error drug experimentation. ... 
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
How can you sufficiently explain science to folks who's minds are trapped in the paradigm of backward ancient myths and superstitions?
iTs no coincidence that folks with such subjective fabled religious beliefs often compound them with modern day conspiracy beliefs.
They fear science aims to undermine Bible and thus likely the work of the devil...computer barcodes and Mother energy drink = tools of the devil. And then there is Georges Lemaitre, mathematician, astronomer, physicist. Also a Catholic priest, Jesuit trained no less. He was the first to identify that the recession of nearby galaxies can be explained by a theory of an expanding universe, which was observationally confirmed soon afterwards by Edwin Hubble. So when you run the clock backwards to a sinularity, 13.7 or 11.7 billion years ago, you're dealing with Lemaitre's equations. And no, he wasn't burned at the stake, or even subjected to house arrest.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 18,994
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 18,994 |
And then there is Georges Lemaitre, mathematician who lived in the 20th century; not the 13tn century. Lucky for him.
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,222 Likes: 23
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,222 Likes: 23 |
Creationists are out by about 14 billion years. They always miss that point I say this one only goes 12 pages. Depends of your settings.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 25,105
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 25,105 |
Stupid scientists!
Next thing you know they’ll try to convince us the internet is real! Hahahah!!!!
Wait....what?
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Well, there's The Vatican Observatory founded in 1891 (at Castle Gandolfo for LoTR fans) And astronomy goes back further, Gregorian calendar 1582. And way back to the dark ages. Who do you think preserved scientific literary works in that time period? Monks going mad copying books all day, every day. And that was only what I've picked up in passing.
BTW what really pissed the pope off wasn't what Galileo wrote but he published before the pope was ready to grant his approval. Something not done in those days.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Stupid scientists!
Next thing you know they’ll try to convince us the internet is real! Hahahah!!!!
Wait....what? Hell, they can't even decide if Pluto is a planet - depends on which one you ask. Almost as bad as the Campfire.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,209 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,209 Likes: 1 |
Doesn't matter. It existed when I got here, and I expect it to be doing fine when I exit. This^^^^ kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 29,786
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 29,786 |
The generally accepted age of the universe is 13.7 billion years, based on a Hubble Constant of 70.
Jee’s team came up with a Hubble Constant of 82.4, which would put the age of the universe at around 11.4 billion years.
Really? You lot are in a pissing match about two billion years, or not as the case may very well be. There is only one certainty in this whole pointless subject...whatever that ring twit comes up with is wrong.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Hell, they can't even decide if Pluto is a planet - depends on which one you ask...
I didnt think it was considered anything less than a dwarf planet. now lets talk about the 1960s Vatican reforms that demoted saints by taking their A-list class halos away. folks spent centuries puffing up such legends to have them suddenly ...  now if they had just applied stringent protocols before ordaining them as saints it all could have been avoided; a waiting period, background checks, trial-grade evidence of extraordinary virtue or martyrdom, a minimum of two miracles, and finally wait for the Holy Spirit to enlighten someone at the Vatican to the fact that something did not or didn't met the criteria of a saint. Stupid scientists!
Next thing you know they’ll try to convince us the internet is real! Hahahah!!!!
I was told yrs ago that the hard-drive space on a computer does not actually comprise of real space as we know it. well its there otherwise you could not fill it up with ones data, but the space the data takes up was never actually there. otherwise known as I.T. metaphysics.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Of course hard drive space is real. Each data bit occupies physical space consisting of magnetic domains. For more data either you need greater physical size or use fewer domains per bit. Of course space meaning an area within a field.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504 |
I haven't read all the posts on this thread, just enough to convince me (again) that there are some really dumb people here.
Look, the way science works is that it observes the evidence, makes a conclusion, and does some observations to test that conslucion. If new evidence shows up, the conclusion can be modified. That has happened MANY TIMES in all branches of science.
Regarding the age of the universe, it was estimated based on calculating the Hubble Constant. (If you don't know what that means, go back to high school.) New observations may change the best estimate of the Hubble constant.
But some things are so certain they will not be overturned based on any evidence. The earth is not 7,000 years old, snakes don't talk, Noah's phony flood never happened, and you can't make striped baby goats by forcing goats to look at striped sticks while they are copulating.
If you want to talk about disagreement, what about the 33,000 different Protestant demoninations, all with a different view of what the Bible actually says.
Last edited by IndyCA35; 09/13/19.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
...and you can't make striped baby goats by forcing goats to look at striped sticks while they are copulating. Really? Rasis an interesting question: How did you come to know that? 
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,256 Likes: 3
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,256 Likes: 3 |
Interesting. You challenge science because they made a revision to an estimate. And you base your ridicule on a bible that has been mistranslated and revised how many times?
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884 |
Look, the way science works is that it observes the evidence, makes a conclusion, and does some observations to test that conclusion. If new evidence shows up, the conclusion can be modified....But some things are so certain they will not be overturned based on any evidence. Oh, back to religion again, then? What you are noting is that all worldviews, at base level, must contain some presupposed certainties upon which to build the rest of their coherent view of how things are explained. Whether one calls this "preunderstandings" or "religion" or "foundational assumptions" or "ontological realities" or "fill-in-the-blank," everybody has them. That, of course, is why scientific constants are not constant. And why Thomas Kuhn wrote his now (in)famous book.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,378
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,378 |
Science has been stuck for 100 years. The only things we can measure for certain are; 1) General Relativity , 2) Quantum Mechanics All that stuff about the age of the universe is based on Doppler shift in light. A photon's frequency is proportional to its energy. If the object is going away fast, there is a red shift. If the object is coming fast, there is blue shift. If there is such a thing as "tired light", then all their calculations about the universe don't work. It all depends on that one unverifyable thing.... that a photon does not get tired in 14 billion years of travel. The math of what we cannot know
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,418
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,418 |
Yes, Quantum physics is the deal breaker.
I pick creation in however way God imagined it to be.
Quantum science takes time and space our of the equation and just confuses mainstream science about the origin of things.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965 |
Science today is mostly alchemists hoping to find gold in carbon. Overly-sensitive spineless little creatures once full of knowledge now turned into lies.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Photon get tired? Can't imagine how that would work. Law of conservation of energy. We have some very old photons to investigate in the form of cosmic background radiation (Penzias and Wilson). Nobody's reported anything hinky about them as far as I know. Now there's your red shift - all the way to microwaves.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,378
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,378 |
Photon get tired? Can't imagine how that would work. Law of conservation of energy. We have some very old photons to investigate in the form of cosmic background radiation (Penzias and Wilson). Nobody's reported anything hinky about them as far as I know. Now there's your red shift - all the way to microwaves. CBR is very red shifted from scattering. [not the original photons]
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Not sure I buy that. I get the scattering part generally, like a photon making its way out of the sun. But I don't think it's operative here. More like an photon decoupling from matter moving really fast.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504 |
Photon get tired? Can't imagine how that would work. Law of conservation of energy. We have some very old photons to investigate in the form of cosmic background radiation (Penzias and Wilson). Nobody's reported anything hinky about them as far as I know. Now there's your red shift - all the way to microwaves. CBR is very red shifted from scattering. [not the original photons] Not true. CBR is red shifted due to the relative velocity of (a) its source and (b) us, not scattering.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344
Campfire Tracker
|
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344 |
Math dudes off by 2 billion... maybe?
Math dudes should abandon hubris and learn chagrin
cha·grin
/SHəˈɡrin/
Learn to pronounce
noun
distress or embarrassment at having failed or been humiliated.
"Jeff, much to his chagrin, wasn't invited"
synonyms: annoyance, irritation, vexation, exasperation, displeasure, pique, spleen, crossness, anger, rage, fury, wrath; More
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810 |
Whether the universe is 13.7 billion years old or 11.4 billion years old in immaterial. It is older than anyone on this forum.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,222 Likes: 23
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,222 Likes: 23 |
Whether the universe is 13.7 billion years old or 11.4 billion years old in immaterial. It is older than anyone on this forum. And, older than a third of posters think it is.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859 |
Interesting. You challenge science because they made a revision to an estimate. And you base your ridicule on a bible that has been mistranslated and revised how many times? If you care to know the facts, you can read the forward to almost any new Bible. I am not talking about paraphrased types to make them easy to read. The forward will tell you they are using the oldest available manuscripts in the original languages. Some manuscripts go back to the first century. There is nothing the Bible in ancient literature.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
The difference between Doppler and light scattering is understood well enough....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 45,028 Likes: 24
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 45,028 Likes: 24 |
The earth is flat and 8436 yrs old.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859 |
Math dudes off by 2 billion... maybe?
Math dudes should abandon hubris and learn chagrin
cha·grin
/SHəˈɡrin/
Learn to pronounce
noun
distress or embarrassment at having failed or been humiliated.
"Jeff, much to his chagrin, wasn't invited"
synonyms: annoyance, irritation, vexation, exasperation, displeasure, pique, spleen, crossness, anger, rage, fury, wrath; More
Where's the hubris in admitting that previous theories may (or may not) may have been off to some degree? Fact is you just don't like these people because they don't simply take things on faith like you do. You don't seem to have a problem running down people who's only "crime" seems to be holding a different opinion than yours.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Of course hard drive space is real. Each data bit occupies physical space consisting of magnetic domains.
For more data either you need greater physical size or use fewer domains per bit. Of course space meaning an area within a field. the information we put in does not take up actual physical space. writing or deleting from a hard drive does not increase or decrease volume. The containers that hold bytes take up space, but writing bytes only changes the orientation of the bytes. BTW: your alleged beyond time and space realm God was found in the confines of a wooden box called the Ark, but only after He made his way down from his location on the mountain.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
Any 'beyond time and space' realm must have its own time and space....unless its a Singularity. A Black Hole.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Any 'beyond time and space' realm must have its own time and space....unless its a Singularity. A Black Hole. apparently Jesus has a sand clock that never runs out. Seems he also has royal stables, cause he will be returning on a white horse.
Look, the way science works is that it observes the evidence, makes a conclusion, and does some observations to test that conslucion.
If new evidence shows up, the conclusion can be modified. That has happened MANY TIMES in all branches of science.
You can bet any christian on trial for a serious crime would welcome modern forensic science proving their innocence. and any christian already imprisoned would welcome new improved less error prone science that could overturn a wrong conviction. I wonder if there are any christians out there that would insist that prayers are the answer rather than LE using forensic science to assist in capture and conviction of the killer or rapist of their child. The Pope recently got stuck in a Vatican lift, but it wasn't prayers that got him out , it was a team of trained firefighters.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
the information we put in does not take up actual physical space. I said. "Of course space meaning an area within a field." I try to not confine myself to space-time.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800 |
Any 'beyond time and space' realm must have its own time and space....unless its a Singularity. A Black Hole. apparently Jesus has a sand clock that never runs out. Seems he also has royal stables, cause he will be returning on a white horse.
Look, the way science works is that it observes the evidence, makes a conclusion, and does some observations to test that conslucion.
If new evidence shows up, the conclusion can be modified. That has happened MANY TIMES in all branches of science.
You can bet any christian on trial for a serious crime would welcome modern forensic science proving their innocence. and any christian already imprisoned would welcome new improved less error prone science that could overturn a wrong conviction. I wonder if there are any christians out there that would insist that prayers are the answer rather than LE using forensic science to assist in capture and conviction of the killer or rapist of their child. The Pope recently got stuck in a Vatican lift, but it wasn't prayers that got him out , it was a team of trained firefighters. And then they thank god, whereas god put them in that position in the first place.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Any 'beyond time and space' realm must have its own time and space....unless its a Singularity. A Black Hole. Why?
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Did Jesus take his resurrected earthly body to heaven on ascension?
What form does Jesus take when sitting at the right hand of God in Heaven?
IF Jesus does not have an actual physical presence in heaven, then where did his physical form body end up?
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
Any 'beyond time and space' realm must have its own time and space....unless its a Singularity. A Black Hole. Why? Why? Because rate of change is what we call time. If God exists and is capable of thought, that thought has a beginning a middle and an end, the thought has a rate of progress from beginning to end and the rate of progress is time....time being relative.
Last edited by DBT; 09/14/19.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,556
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,556 |
Don't the thumpers believe earth is 6000 years old?
living the good life every day
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,689 Likes: 15
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,689 Likes: 15 |
And yes, I do call that science....you study and gather as much info as you can and try to draw conclusions from that. As new information or technology comes on the scene, you go back and look at the previous work to see if it can't be improved. If it can, you do so, and publish the new information. That's how its supposed to work. It's not perfect, but it's the only approach that makes sense. This.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Why? Because rate of change is what we call time. Our concept of time is based on our perception of change in the physical world, it is linear and unidirectional. So outside our three dimensional world time can have no meaning. I've always fancied this quote by Spinoza: "Measure, time and number are nothing but modes of thought or rather of imagination."
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
Why? Because rate of change is what we call time. Our concept of time is based on our perception of change in the physical world, it is linear and unidirectional. So outside our three dimensional world time can have no meaning. I've always fancied this quote by Spinoza: "Measure, time and number are nothing but modes of thought or rather of imagination." You appear to have missed the part where I said that if God exists and has the capacity to think and act, each thought and action has a beginning, a middle and an end. Rather than being timeless, this is time as defined as a rate of change.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
You can say that connotes some sort of order but it isn't time. Go back to the definition, a sequence of events as we perceive them. We can only perceive events in three dimensional space which is our physical universe. So the concept of time can only occur in our three dimensional universe.
There is a thought experiment where a two dimensional creature lives on a two dimensional plane. He encounters us living in three dimensions. To the two dimensional creature we seem to zip in and out of existence as we move about the third dimension. How can the two dimensional creature explain that? He can't because he cannot experience that third dimension. He may hypothesize but he will never know.
So as far as what goes on outside our three dimensions we can never know. Perhaps religion notwithstanding but that's another matter.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,650 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,650 Likes: 1 |
Of course hard drive space is real. Each data bit occupies physical space consisting of magnetic domains. For more data either you need greater physical size or use fewer domains per bit. Of course space meaning an area within a field. Then how can you delete a bunch of stuff once the hard drive is full, then add more, but yet a forensic team can recover what was deleted?
My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,689 Likes: 15
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,689 Likes: 15 |
Of course hard drive space is real. Each data bit occupies physical space consisting of magnetic domains. For more data either you need greater physical size or use fewer domains per bit. Of course space meaning an area within a field. Then how can you delete a bunch of stuff once the hard drive is full, then add more, but yet a forensic team can recover what was deleted? Like erasing pages of data on a piece of paper written in pencil, then penciling over it with new data. Even after erased, careful inspection can reveal what was erased and written over.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
A hard drive is divided into segments - maybe I can find a picture. When you write a file to the drive it's written to one or more segments. There's an index area on the disk which associates the file name with a specific segment. From there indexing schemes vary but it all works to tell you the segments the file uses and in what order. ![[Linked Image]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYv1QJ9XkAAlMB3.jpg) When you delete a file to save time all that happens is the index entry for the first segment is labeled as not being used, OK to write over. Now you can delete a file with something like the infamous Bleach Bit that Hillary used. That overwrites the whole file, bit by bit. So if you just delete you can search the index to find the first segment, which will lead you to the next segment, etc. This was a not uncommon chore in the floppy disk days, sometimes things just go wrong. The file entry in the index started with the file name. If the file was deleted the first character of the file name was replaced with a null. Not too hard to find and fix. Beyond that if you find one segment it'll tell you where the next segment is and depending on the file system maybe where the previous segment is. Now the Bleach Bit erase is harder. If you overwrite an entire file bit by bit you can still read a ghost image of the old file with the proper equipment. Bleach Bit and others overwrite the file a number of times with a specific pattern. This is specified by DOD for erasing secret files. Pretty much makes data recovery impossible - why Hillary isn't staying at the old graybar. ( I use the shred utility that comes with Free AVG. I trust they've implemented the DOD specification properly. But there's been nothing on my computer that would warrant a difficult and very expensive retrieval if AVG didn't get it exactly right.)
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976 |
Interesting. You challenge science because they made a revision to an estimate. And you base your ridicule on a bible that has been mistranslated and revised how many times? If you care to know the facts, you can read the forward to almost any new Bible. I am not talking about paraphrased types to make them easy to read. The forward will tell you they are using the oldest available manuscripts in the original languages. Some manuscripts go back to the first century. There is nothing the Bible in ancient literature. Oldest available does not mean first draft. Additionally, To say the only use "the oldest available" is simply not true. What some believe to be the oldest "manuscript" of the Old Testament is piece of parchment the size of a post card. They didn't drive an entire bible of that, so completeness and textual deviance also play a role in determining what manuscripts to use. Regardless even the oldest we have available deviate from each other.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,914 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,914 Likes: 1 |
That is less than a 10% error in a brand new field trying to determine events which obviously happened thousands of millions of years before our sun even began to condense from a cloud of gas. I would say that even getting within 10% is pretty darned good. Have you ever mounted a brand new scope on a brand new rifle and hit a ten inch bull at 1000 yds with the first pull of the trigger? I will not laugh at you if you have not.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
You can say that connotes some sort of order but it isn't time. Go back to the definition, a sequence of events as we perceive them. We can only perceive events in three dimensional space which is our physical universe. So the concept of time can only occur in our three dimensional universe.
There is a thought experiment where a two dimensional creature lives on a two dimensional plane. He encounters us living in three dimensions. To the two dimensional creature we seem to zip in and out of existence as we move about the third dimension. How can the two dimensional creature explain that? He can't because he cannot experience that third dimension. He may hypothesize but he will never know.
So as far as what goes on outside our three dimensions we can never know. Perhaps religion notwithstanding but that's another matter. Of course it is time. Anything, a thought, an action, an event that has a beginning a middle and an end has duration. Movement or rate of change is what we define as time. Be it one, two or three dimensions of space and one of time....or vice versa.
Last edited by DBT; 09/14/19.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,262
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,262 |
I believe in Intelligent Creation.I believe God to be highly intelligent.I also believe that Earth is Millions if not Billions years old.I think The Bible has been twisted by Men to fit their own conclusions.I believe the stories in The Bible are factual but the time frames are not.Nothing ever handed down by man ever resembles what actually happened by the time it passes through two generations.Look how the lefties are trying to twist the History of The US.Kids now a days have no clue on what happened in the 2nd World War to the Jews.History is always being revised for the benefit of those who seek power.That has been that way from the beginning and will never change.Huntz
Its all right to be white!!
Stupidity left unattended will run rampant
Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337 |
I believe in Intelligent Creation.I believe God to be highly intelligent.I also believe that Earth is Millions if not Billions years old.I think The Bible has been twisted by Men to fit their own conclusions.I believe the stories in The Bible are factual but the time frames are not.Nothing ever handed down by man ever resembles what actually happened by the time it passes through two generations.Look how the lefties are trying to twist the History of The US.Kids now a days have no clue on what happened in the 2nd World War to the Jews.History is always being revised for the benefit of those who seek power.That has been that way from the beginning and will never change.Huntz history without exception is always penned by the scribes who work for the victors. history, like the constitution gets amended from time to time for better or worse. the truth is a moving target, we can shoot as close to the center as possible. and of course as "power" shifts, so does the history of the world itself.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Of course it is time. Anything, a thought, an action, an event that has a beginning a middle and an end has duration. ...
The Lord himself said that he created over a number of days, resting on the seventh. The creator describes his own actions in a 3D time & space realm. btw; No response received from christians regarding what dimensional form Jesus takes in heaven. If a physical presence, then it makes heaven seem like a rather ordinary place, if ethereal , then someone needs to explain where the physical organic body of Jesus ended up. maybe its been put into a cryo state waiting to be kick started for JCs return.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
... read the forward to almost any new Bible. ..
The forward will tell you they are using the oldest available manuscripts in the original languages...
Oldest available does not mean first draft. Additionally, ... What some believe to be the oldest "manuscript" of the Old Testament is piece of parchment the size of a post card. They didn't drive an entire bible of that,.... Hollywood will say 'based on a true story'. which could often mean very little truth [ what one can fit on a postcard] with all remaining script blanks filled in with folks taking the liberty to invoke vivid imagination of varying degree. its not like the ancients didn't already have creative writing skills, that they previously applied to pagan mythologies. in fact Bible has terms derived from Greek mythology.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337 |
Of course it is time. Anything, a thought, an action, an event that has a beginning a middle and an end has duration. ...
The Lord himself said that he created over a number of days, resting on the seventh. The creator describes his own actions in a 3D time & space realm. btw; No response received from christians regarding what dimensional form Jesus takes in heaven. If a physical presence, then it makes heaven seem like a rather ordinary place, if ethereal , then someone needs to explain where the physical organic body of Jesus ended up. maybe its been put into a cryo state waiting to be kick started for JCs return. some folks have dared to suggest that jesus when he ascended turned into pure light - love? the story about his ascending in bodily form was yet another roman effort to make sense, or deny the real event.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Scripture indicates Jesus was resurrected in regular tangible human form ,
Jesus even assures them that he is flesh and blood.
Luke 24:39
"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."
So at what point in time did Jesus allegedly become pure ethereal light?
He was taken up in a cloud, so his flesh body went into the first known form of cloud storage?
Of course some christians claim resurrected Jesus on earth shifted back-forth from spirit to flesh form as the need arose.
Im sure the Vatican or some Protestant Evangelists have a spin on it.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859 |
That is less than a 10% error in a brand new field trying to determine events which obviously happened thousands of millions of years before our sun even began to condense from a cloud of gas. I would say that even getting within 10% is pretty darned good. Have you ever mounted a brand new scope on a brand new rifle and hit a ten inch bull at 1000 yds with the first pull of the trigger? I will not laugh at you if you have not. You are accepting what "they" say because you don't want to accept what God's Word says. You start with the idea the Bible is not correct exactly like the Creation scientists with Ph.D.s now start with the idea "they" are not correct. Some grew up as Creationists and some became Creationists after they earned their doctorates and started working in the lab or fields.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976 |
[quote=DBT]
btw; No response received from christians regarding what dimensional form Jesus takes in heaven.
If a physical presence, then it makes heaven seem like a rather ordinary place, if ethereal ,
then someone needs to explain where the physical organic body of Jesus ended up.. In all those crackers, or at least that's the answer if you are Catholic.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976 |
That is less than a 10% error in a brand new field trying to determine events which obviously happened thousands of millions of years before our sun even began to condense from a cloud of gas. I would say that even getting within 10% is pretty darned good. Have you ever mounted a brand new scope on a brand new rifle and hit a ten inch bull at 1000 yds with the first pull of the trigger? I will not laugh at you if you have not. You are accepting what "they" say because you don't want to accept what God's Word says. You start with the idea the Bible is not correct exactly like the Creation scientists with Ph.D.s now start with the idea "they" are not correct. Some grew up as Creationists and some became Creationists after they earned their doctorates and started working in the lab or fields. Wanting to believe has nothing to do with it. Either the Bible can withstand scrutiny, or it can't. Spoiler alert........It's can't.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
That is less than a 10% error in a brand new field trying to determine events which obviously happened thousands of millions of years before our sun even began to condense from a cloud of gas. I would say that even getting within 10% is pretty darned good. Have you ever mounted a brand new scope on a brand new rifle and hit a ten inch bull at 1000 yds with the first pull of the trigger? I will not laugh at you if you have not. You are accepting what "they" say because you don't want to accept what God's Word says. You start with the idea the Bible is not correct exactly like the Creation scientists with Ph.D.s now start with the idea "they" are not correct. Some grew up as Creationists and some became Creationists after they earned their doctorates and started working in the lab or fields. It is a claim that the bible is the word of God....this is something that needs to be established before it can be rationally accepted as the word of God, and not just taken on faith.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,525 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,525 Likes: 6 |
The "science" gig goes like this:
Ya see something.
Ya make up a story about why the thing ya saw, was the thing ya saw.
Ya hope simple people will have faith in it.
When somebody else comes up with a better story than you, you go back ta work in a different direction.
All ya need for true believers, is a story they want ta hear.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,876 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,876 Likes: 4 |
The "science" gig goes like this:
Ya see something.
Ya make up a story about why the thing ya saw, was the thing ya saw.
Ya hope simple people will have faith in it.
When somebody else comes up with a better story than you, you go back ta work in a different direction.
All ya need for true believers, is a story they want ta hear.
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,876 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,876 Likes: 4 |
That is less than a 10% error in a brand new field trying to determine events which obviously happened thousands of millions of years before our sun even began to condense from a cloud of gas. I would say that even getting within 10% is pretty darned good. Have you ever mounted a brand new scope on a brand new rifle and hit a ten inch bull at 1000 yds with the first pull of the trigger? I will not laugh at you if you have not. This sounds like the excuses that I used to hear about slide rules and approximation.
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
The "science" gig goes like this:
Ya see something.
Ya make up a story about why the thing ya saw, was the thing ya saw.
Ya hope simple people will have faith in it.
When somebody else comes up with a better story than you, you go back ta work in a different direction.
All ya need for true believers, is a story they want ta hear. Science figured how out its possible for birds to fly through the Principles of Flight (POF) no one other than a total kook level christian would deny the science behind the established findings. but did a person called Jesus actually walk on water and ascend into the clouds and by what verified method and means?
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,525 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,525 Likes: 6 |
Science figured how out its possible for birds to fly through the Principles of Flight (POF)
no one other than a total kook level christian would deny the science behind the established findings.
but did a person called Jesus actually walk on water and ascend into the clouds and by what verified method and means? The Golden Rule is a fundamental principle that has not been refuted to this day. It's in the Bible. No one other than a total kook level socialist would deny the perfection of this established truism.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976 |
Science figured how out its possible for birds to fly through the Principles of Flight (POF)
no one other than a total kook level christian would deny the science behind the established findings.
but did a person called Jesus actually walk on water and ascend into the clouds and by what verified method and means? The Golden Rule is a fundamental principle that has not been refuted to this day. It's in the Bible. No one other than a total kook level socialist would deny the perfection of this established truism. The Golden Rule is also in Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Sikhism, Taoism, and Zoroastrianism. Does that make all of there myths true as well?
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 09/14/19.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
The "science" gig goes like this:
Ya see something.
Ya make up a story about why the thing ya saw, was the thing ya saw.
Ya hope simple people will have faith in it.
When somebody else comes up with a better story than you, you go back ta work in a different direction.
All ya need for true believers, is a story they want ta hear. You come to an intersection and there are two wrecked cars, broken glass, skid marks and people injured, you know that there was an accident but it is not clear how it happened or who was at fault, that remains to be determined. At no point is there faith involved unless you start making up stories without the necessary information, yet assume that you have the truth, it being that assumption of truth that becomes an article of faith.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,525 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,525 Likes: 6 |
Makes em more true than cold fusion, nuclear winter, life on Mars found in a meteorite, AGW, miracle drugs that kill ya, and alla the other BS that the faithful acccepted as science-backed truth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,525 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,525 Likes: 6 |
You come to an intersection and there are two wrecked cars, broken glass, skid marks and people injured, you know that there was an accident but it is not clear how it happened or who was at fault, that remains to be determined. At no point is there faith involved unless you start making up stories without the necessary information, yet assume that you have the truth, it being that assumption of truth that becomes an article of faith. If there was 3 witnesses to that wreck, you're gonna get 3 different stories bout what happened. A scientist would pick one, declare it proven, and run ta get funding with it. True faithful believers would back that scientist's delusion/conclusion on internet forums.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
You come to an intersection and there are two wrecked cars, broken glass, skid marks and people injured, you know that there was an accident but it is not clear how it happened or who was at fault, that remains to be determined. At no point is there faith involved unless you start making up stories without the necessary information, yet assume that you have the truth, it being that assumption of truth that becomes an article of faith. If there was 3 witnesses to that wreck, you're gonna get 3 different stories bout what happened. A scientist would pick one, declare it proven, and run ta get funding with it. True faithful believers would back that scientist's delusion/conclusion on internet forums. I wasn't talking about witness testimony alone, often being notoriously unreliable, but the overall evidence...perhaps there was a CCTV camera, the skid marks provide information, witnesses may completely agree on some points, etc. The point being, it takes investigation to come to the truth. Even then, some details may be lost.
Last edited by DBT; 09/14/19.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,525 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,525 Likes: 6 |
Even then, some details may be lost. And, that's where the scientists come in. They conjure up a bullshit theory, that's designed ta be attractive to a certain segment of the population, i.e., the ones that'll give scientists money. Then request funding to study the theory. Then jump into the "science" gig routine I posted before. Just realized the science gig thing was based upon my observations of scientists. So, that makes my observations of the science gig theory the overall evidence. My investigation has revealed the truth. Which makes the science gig theory scientific. Now all I gotta do is work on the funding part. Never realized how easy this science stuff was.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Of course it is time. Anything, a thought, an action, an event that has a beginning a middle and an end has duration. Movement or rate of change is what we define as time. Be it one, two or three dimensions of space and one of time....or vice versa. One last try You started off with: Because rate of change is what we call time. If God exists and is capable of thought, that thought has a beginning a middle and an end, the thought has a rate of progress from beginning to end and the rate of progress is time....time being relative. The part I underlined makes for a very big assumption. One might say that by stating God thinks sequentially you must assume that God is constrained by time. Wouldn't be able to think without it. Into the metaphysical, if God created all things, which includes time, how can he be constrained by time? He could simply un-create time. What then were the conditions before time was created? How did God "think?" Or if time had to exist before God could exist, who created time?
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
Of course it is time. Anything, a thought, an action, an event that has a beginning a middle and an end has duration. Movement or rate of change is what we define as time. Be it one, two or three dimensions of space and one of time....or vice versa. One last try You started off with: Because rate of change is what we call time. If God exists and is capable of thought, that thought has a beginning a middle and an end, the thought has a rate of progress from beginning to end and the rate of progress is time....time being relative. The part I underlined makes for a very big assumption. One might say that by stating God thinks sequentially you must assume that God is constrained by time. Wouldn't be able to think without it. Into the metaphysical, if God created all things, which includes time, how can he be constrained by time? He could simply un-create time. What then were the conditions before time was created? How did God "think?" Or if time had to exist before God could exist, who created time? Is it an assumption that a thought or an event has a beginning a middle and an end? Can a thought begin a the end and finish at the start? Can you come back from work in the afternoon before you start out in the morning? The progression of an event is the rate and progression of time.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Yes it is, outside of our universe. Just because that's the way it works living in our three dimensions doesn't mean that's the way it works elsewhere. Since you can have no knowledge of what happens outside of our universe how could it not be an assumption
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
Ok, so logic and reason does not exist outside our universe, in gods world the end can be the beginning and the middle can be the end and despite things happening, there is no time, everything is frozen in time, yet happening randomly....gotcha!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976 |
I'm still waiting for NH's evidence this god dimension exists.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
If there was 3 witnesses to that wreck, you're gonna get 3 different stories bout what happened.
A scientist would pick one, declare it proven,...
Scientific minds consider and correlate objective evidence like; CCTV, onboard cameras, mobile activity, driver toxicology , meteorological and environmental conditions , mechanical condition or failure , skid patterns, stuck speedometer needles,...etc, etc. simply because numerous eyewitness accounts from 30 minutes ago can all be erroneous, now think of the ones passed down the line from impressionable superstitious minds from 2000 yrs ago. thankfully Air crash investigations , and road vehicle, aircraft and military hardware developmental testing also follow the scientific approach.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
The misrepresentation of science on display is amazing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
Yes it is, outside of our universe. Just because that's the way it works living in our three dimensions doesn't mean that's the way it works elsewhere. Since you can have no knowledge of what happens outside of our universe how could it not be an assumption Time is the rates of change within the physical dimensions of height, width and depth. This applies to two dimensions or more. Time is inseparable from space, ie, timespace. Check out general relativity.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 328
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 328 |
I work with a guy to whom God speaks and gives pretty direct orders and information. If God cared to do the same with me, maybe I'd believe in him. I've always wondered why God doesn't think of us all as equal.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800 |
And why he gives babies and children cancer - no creationist can explain this, nor even try to, they just ignore and move on
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
I work with a guy to whom God speaks and gives pretty direct orders and information. If God cared to do the same with me,
maybe I'd believe in him.
I've always wondered why God doesn't think of us all as equal. The good shepherd only needs to guide the sick, lost and wayward sheep. So if he aint got need to instruct you, kick your stubborn ass or drag you by the scruff .. It may be a very good sign. It’s all a mystery wrapped in a infinite enigma. There arent enough facts to proves anything on anyone and it’s so convoluted that there’s no answer.
It’s all filler for a bored society where time is the only constant. I had to steal this from a totally different thread topic , since it equally applies to the mythology of the religious crowd.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800 |
.... The good shepherd only needs to guide the sick, lost and wayward sheep.....
So why does he let babies and children die of cancer before they have a chance to accept jesus as their saviour thereby condeming them to hell. That's one cruel puppet master.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
which hell specifically?
Different Hebrew and Greek words are translated as "Hell" in most English-language Bibles. They include:
Sheol, Hades, transliterated do not typically refer to the place of eternal punishment, but to the grave,
the temporary abode of the dead, [the underworld].
"Gehenna" "Hell" or "Hell fire" in many English versions.
The Greek verb ταρταρῶ (tartarō, derived from Tartarus)), which occurs once in the New Testament (in 2 Peter 2:4), is almost always
translated by a phrase such as "thrown down to hell". A few translations render it as "Tartarus"; of this term, the Holman Christian
Standard Bible states: "Tartarus is a Greek name for a subterranean place of divine punishment lower than Hades."[2 Peter 2:4]
(no doubt a disappointment to fire & brimstone christian types)
When Hebrew Torah scripture was translated into Greek in Alexandria (Septuagint) 3rd century BC
they replaced Hebrew words like 'Sheol', with 'Hades' which comes from Greek pagan mythology
which refers to the pagan mythological underworld....N.T. English translation scriptures commonly
use the words HADES or HELL. as evidenced in Luke and Matthew.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800 |
Irrelevant - doesn't answer the question
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
nOt irrelevant , because you said 'condemned to hell' which depends on which version of hell one believes in, either;.. eternal burning damnation in hell (Christian jag-X type) or Hebrew hell (book of Job) which is a restful sleepy still and quiet state holding yard, (which God has the keys to) till released for judgement. then you either go to heaven or get totally destroyed-annihilated by being consumed in the lake of fire.
In all those crackers, or at least that's the answer if you are Catholic.
had my share of 'body of christ' wafers, now if they just infused them with some butter and maple, you'd have a lot more people going to confession. Allergy Warning!!...The Vatican emphatically states Sacramental bread MUST contain gluten.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 945
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 945 |
I have not read thorough this entire thread, but it seems ironic that creationists are always quick to point out how scientists are changing their theories, but how many different religions do we have? How many flavors of christianity do we have at present? I will give you a hint, more than one.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800 |
Okay, lets assume the "get totally destroyed-annihilated by being consumed in the lake of fire" type hell - now answer the question: godless infant dies of cancer and goes to this hell - why?
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859 |
.... The good shepherd only needs to guide the sick, lost and wayward sheep.....
So why does he let babies and children die of cancer before they have a chance to accept jesus as their saviour thereby condeming them to hell. That's one cruel puppet master. What you call "cruel puppet master" is actually an Infinitely Wise God Who cursed the universe. If you actually read the Bible carefully you would know God is no respecter of people. Age is not considered as far as the consequence of Adam's sin. About the kids, careful study of God's Word shows God has an age when He imputes guilt. That age is twenty. Below that all souls are saved from hell. Above that they are responsible to accept God's Gift of His Son to be saved from hell.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
. That age is twenty. Below that all souls are saved from hell. Where does Bible specify the 'age of accountability' as 20..?
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
What about chemical imbalances in the brain or just wired wrong, imparing decision making?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
in cultures and neighborhoods where kids grow up much faster than others, it seems they can skate through and get away
with a lot of schitt before they reach 20...
mY understanding is that God will assess each individually which means ages can vary.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800 |
So you're better off killing the kids before they become "eligible" for hell
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Only the good die young?
at least it gets you away from the bad and the ugly...
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
Or God, being omniscient and omnipotent, could simply have created suitable subjects or companions without all the fuss, drama, evil, suffering, hell and damnation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
He needed sheep to keep His lawns short.
Where there are sheep you will find wolves, .."son I got a job for you- here's your crook.."
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800 |
How do they judge an infant that has gone to the "restful sleepy" hell - they can't talk or even think
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Infants just pass 'GO" and collect $200.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
I think that Church hierarchy of the middle ages justified torturing 'heretics' using the rationale that it is better for the soul of the victim to suffer finitely under the gentle hand of the church than be subject to eternal torment under the God of Love.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800 |
...this is for your own good...
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976 |
So you're better off killing the kids before they become "eligible" for hell Psalm 137: 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
.... The good shepherd only needs to guide the sick, lost and wayward sheep.....
So why does he let babies and children die of cancer before they have a chance to accept jesus as their saviour thereby condeming them to hell. Tha t's one cruel puppet master. How about car wreck, wars, famine, or just being left in a hot car. Is that any less tragic?
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
~The Riddle of Epicurus~
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Older than Christianity
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800 |
Respone to Nighthawk:
No, not at all. My example was selected to remove as much "human intervention" effects as possible. Your examples include human negligence or deliberate action (except famine) which are hard to pin on god.
Last edited by mauserand9mm; 09/15/19.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
So if the results are equally vile why not stop that too? So why not no kids, or nobody else for that matter, is allowed to die until they have the opportunity to accept Jesus? Traditionally the age of reason was 7 years, incapable of truly accepting Jesus before that.
An extreme question but something that needs to be answered in forming a universal principl on suffering.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
Hindus, Buddhists, etc, have their own religious beliefs that don't involve accepting Jesus.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800 |
In the mid 1500s god used to kill 25% of children under the age of 2 1/2 years.
In the early 1990s medicine (science) had reduced that number to 1% (under 2 1/2 year old).
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Traditionally the age of reason was 7 years, incapable of truly accepting Jesus before that.
traditionally.....so when did the church actually establish and put into effect... Canon. 97 §2. "A minor before the completion of the seventh year is called an infant and is considered not responsible for oneself (non sui compos).
With the completion of the seventh year, however, a minor is presumed to have the use of reason"Was it as late as the earlier part of the 17th century?
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Hell I don't know and moreover don't care. Probably comes from Jewish law. But it's tangential to the issue, pick whichever age you like. Pretty much common sense. In American law the age varies by state. In my state a child cannot be held responsible for his actions before the age of ten. (Parents may be liable through the tort of negligent supervision)
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504 |
.... The good shepherd only needs to guide the sick, lost and wayward sheep.....
So why does he let babies and children die of cancer before they have a chance to accept jesus as their saviour thereby condeming them to hell. That's one cruel puppet master. What you call "cruel puppet master" is actually an Infinitely Wise God Who cursed the universe. If you actually read the Bible carefully you would know God is no respecter of people. Age is not considered as far as the consequence of Adam's sin. About the kids, careful study of God's Word shows God has an age when He imputes guilt. That age is twenty. Below that all souls are saved from hell. Above that they are responsible to accept God's Gift of His Son to be saved from hell. I think it's pretty evil to punish innocent descendants and babies for thousands of years just because you're mad at Adam for stealing an apple. Hell, why didn't you just put a fence around the apple tree? Couldn't you just grow another apple? And when you decided to stop punishing everyone for something they didn't do, it's really evil that you, who are supposedly omnipotent, couldn't think of anything but torturing your son to death. All of which goes to show the absurdity of the Book of Genesis.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859 |
So you're better off killing the kids before they become "eligible" for hell You might be. There's more to Scripture than that. We are told to rear up our children in the fear of the Lord so they bring up children in the fear of the Lord.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859 |
I think it's pretty evil to punish innocent descendants and babies for thousands of years just because you're mad at Adam for stealing an apple.
Hell, why didn't you just put a fence around the apple tree? Couldn't you just grow another apple?
And when you decided to stop punishing everyone for something they didn't do, it's really evil that you, who are supposedly omnipotent, couldn't think of anything but torturing your son to death.
All of which goes to show the absurdity of the Book of Genesis. Or you are commenting on things you have little knowledge of.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
The story of Adam and Eve and the fall makes very little sense, except as a bronze age narrative to explain why the world is the way it is, the existence of hardship and suffering. A story borrowed from older cultures and adapted to suit the cultural and religious needs of the tribe of Israel.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976 |
I think it's pretty evil to punish innocent descendants and babies for thousands of years just because you're mad at Adam for stealing an apple.
Hell, why didn't you just put a fence around the apple tree? Couldn't you just grow another apple?
And when you decided to stop punishing everyone for something they didn't do, it's really evil that you, who are supposedly omnipotent, couldn't think of anything but torturing your son to death.
All of which goes to show the absurdity of the Book of Genesis. Or you are commenting on things you have little knowledge of. Nope. He's got it about right. It is you who know nothing about morality because your blind faith in your religion broke your morality.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
Faith being the assumption of knowledge where no knowledge exists....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 12,021 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 12,021 Likes: 2 |
You people are running around in circles saying silly things. For one thin Adam and Eve only had one responsibility and that was to not eat from that one tree but what did they do? What you people are doing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859 |
You people are running around in circles saying silly things. For one thin Adam and Eve only had one responsibility and that was to not eat from that one tree but what did they do? What you people are doing. Did God know they were going to do that?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504 |
.... The good shepherd only needs to guide the sick, lost and wayward sheep.....
So why does he let babies and children die of cancer before they have a chance to accept jesus as their saviour thereby condeming them to hell. That's one cruel puppet master. What you call "cruel puppet master" is actually an Infinitely Wise God Who cursed the universe. If you actually read the Bible carefully you would know God is no respecter of people. Age is not considered as far as the consequence of Adam's sin. About the kids, careful study of God's Word shows God has an age when He imputes guilt. That age is twenty. Below that all souls are saved from hell. Above that they are responsible to accept God's Gift of His Son to be saved from hell. Why would God curse the universe if he made It? And where in the Bible does it specify the age of 20? Are you saying that an MS-13 member is free to commit felonies if he's 19 years old?
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,876 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,876 Likes: 4 |
You people are running around in circles saying silly things. For one thin Adam and Eve only had one responsibility and that was to not eat from that one tree but what did they do? What you people are doing. Did God know they were going to do that? And, did they have a choice in the matter?
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,749
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,749 |
i just hate it when the plus and minus level of error can exceed 1 billion years.
just one free trip around the sun each year is a long time.
i sometimes wonder if we will ever come to a consensus? I don't think so Gus. Here's why. Scientific Method: Step 1 - Question. The "thing" that you want to know. The question you want to answer. Step 2 - Research. Conduct research. ... Step 3 - Hypothesis. Step 4 - Experiment. Test the hypothesis. Step 5 - Observations. Data you collect during the experiment. Step 6 - Results/Conclusion. Step 7 - Communicate. Present/share your results. Replicate.That last word in the last step is the stickler. Your conclusions MUST be able to be Replicated...under the SAME conditions. This is a problem for both sides of the issue. One cannot replicate creation or evolution, nor can we create the same conditions in which either event, or series of events supposedly took place. It seems to me that the arguments...on both sides...involve Faith and Dogma. Dogma in the sense that one must accept the proposition. And, Faith in the sense that one must believe the proposition. Just trying to be fair to both sides. Tom (GB)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,749
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,749 |
You people are running around in circles saying silly things. For one thin Adam and Eve only had one responsibility and that was to not eat from that one tree but what did they do? What you people are doing. Did God know they were going to do that? And, did they have a choice in the matter? It is amusing to me...sadly amusing...that when one tries to discuss evolution, the issue always seems to devolve into an argument questioning the character of an existent or nonexistent God. Yet those same people seem willing to accept the cold hard fact that only the strong survive. And, even without the existence of a God, millions if not billions of people have died in mass via disease, famine, pestilence, natural occurring climate or global events...ect. Tom
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,876 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,876 Likes: 4 |
I simply wanted to interject predestination into the discussion for consideration by all of the parties involved.
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
You people are running around in circles saying silly things. For one thin Adam and Eve only had one responsibility and that was to not eat from that one tree but what did they do? What you people are doing. Given omniscience the outcome was known before the stage was even set.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859 |
The story of Adam and Eve and the fall makes very little sense, except as a bronze age narrative to explain why the world is the way it is, the existence of hardship and suffering. A story borrowed from older cultures and adapted to suit the cultural and religious needs of the tribe of Israel. What culture would predate the first man and woman? You choose to believe fairytales instead of sober history.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859 |
You people are running around in circles saying silly things. For one thin Adam and Eve only had one responsibility and that was to not eat from that one tree but what did they do? What you people are doing. Did God know they were going to do that? According to God's Word Jesus was crucified from the foundation of the world. So yes God knew it. After all, God knows what we think and do before we think and do it.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859 |
.... The good shepherd only needs to guide the sick, lost and wayward sheep.....
So why does he let babies and children die of cancer before they have a chance to accept jesus as their saviour thereby condeming them to hell. That's one cruel puppet master. What you call "cruel puppet master" is actually an Infinitely Wise God Who cursed the universe. If you actually read the Bible carefully you would know God is no respecter of people. Age is not considered as far as the consequence of Adam's sin. About the kids, careful study of God's Word shows God has an age when He imputes guilt. That age is twenty. Below that all souls are saved from hell. Above that they are responsible to accept God's Gift of His Son to be saved from hell. Why would God curse the universe if he made It? And where in the Bible does it specify the age of 20? Are you saying that an MS-13 member is free to commit felonies if he's 19 years old? If you are seriously asking for documentation I wrote an essay about it. I will private message it or post it here, whichever you prefer; if you say so. All MS-13 members is free to choose what he does. At age twenty God imputes guilt.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 6,864
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 6,864 |
Time is inseparable from space, ie, timespace. Check out general relativity. Emphasis mine.
It's about like this:
"Do you puff peters?"
"Hell no!"
"NAZI!!!"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859 |
You people are running around in circles saying silly things. For one thin Adam and Eve only had one responsibility and that was to not eat from that one tree but what did they do? What you people are doing. Did God know they were going to do that? According to God's Word Jesus was crucified from the foundation of the world. So yes God knew it. After all, God knows what we think and do before we think and do it. So then God must have intended it that way.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 6,864
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 6,864 |
According to God's Word Jesus was crucified from the foundation of the world. So yes God knew it. After all, God knows what we think and do before we think and do it.
All I know is when little sis came home from private christian school spoutin' off about Jesus knows how many hairs are on your head, well that was the last semester at private school. So I asked Jesus, but the lawn guy didn't speak English. And so I wondered, why is God's only son mowing lawns for dirt pay? And I'm so disappointed that when some of you croak, you'll never know you were wrong. I'll never know I was right either.
It's about like this:
"Do you puff peters?"
"Hell no!"
"NAZI!!!"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800 |
I used to have a Rottweiller called Jesus
Last edited by mauserand9mm; 09/16/19.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,280
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,280 |
So you're better off killing the kids before they become "eligible" for hell Psalm 137: 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. I suspect you have no idea what this passage is about. Lots of squawking and little of any consequence. Your comment is just more mindless noise...... non sequitur.... This is simply a prophecy against Babylon, but you did not know that. Babylon was a hated kingdom that treated those conquered with cruelty. I would expect that those involved were indeed happy in the fall of Babylon. Some think it was fulfilled by Cyrus.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2 |
Well,.....let's see. If time began as a consequence of the big bang,...it would seem to me that the age of the universe depends on where one might be in the universe. At the outer edge of the expansion it's somewhere around 1/10th of a second old. Outside of the edge of the expansion, it hasn't happened yet.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859 |
[According to God's Word Jesus was crucified from the foundation of the world. So yes God knew it. After all, God knows what we think and do before we think and do it.
So then God must have intended it that way.[/quote] Of course! Do you think anything else is consistent with the Bible?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859 |
Well,.....let's see. If time began as a consequence of the big bang,...it would seem to me that the age of the universe depends on where one might be in the universe. At the outer edge of the expansion it's somewhere around 1/10th of a second old. Outside of the edge of the expansion, it hasn't happened yet. Where's the "Like!" button when you need one?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Hell I don't know and moreover don't care. Probably comes from Jewish law. But it's tangential to the issue,
pick whichever age you like... Does the Vatican so loosely say 'pick which ever age you like'..? Also odd that you don't know the actual background of what you called a tradition for catholics. nor know how old the tradition is. In others words its entirely possible the church just pulled 'seven' out of their ass when it suited them, and anyones wild guess when they did that...could have been 1054, 1627 or 1917... In any case we have our CF Ringo who puts it at 20 yrs, the Vatican at seven. Unfortunately Bible does not specify an age, nor does it say 'pick any age you like'. Christians are like drunk clowns playing pin the tail on the donkey.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859 |
[According to God's Word Jesus was crucified from the foundation of the world. So yes God knew it. After all, God knows what we think and do before we think and do it.
So then God must have intended it that way. Of course! Do you think anything else is consistent with the Bible? [/quote] Well only if you read it literally, when God is constantly surprised and disappointed by what he finds humans doing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
You people are running around in circles saying silly things. For one thin Adam and Eve only had one responsibility
and that was to not eat from that one tree but what did they do? What you people are doing. actually Adam also had the responsibility of the garden. Genesis 2:15 "Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it."
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,876 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,876 Likes: 4 |
You people are running around in circles saying silly things. For one thin Adam and Eve only had one responsibility
and that was to not eat from that one tree but what did they do? What you people are doing. actually Adam also had the responsibility of the garden. Genesis 2:15 "Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it." Who tended it after Adam and Eve were shown the gate? (They always leave out details like that that leave me wondering.)
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
There were no free lunches before or after the Fall.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,914 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,914 Likes: 1 |
What you call "cruel puppet master" is actually an Infinitely Wise God Who cursed the universe. If you actually read the Bible carefully you would know God is no respecter of people. Age is not considered as far as the consequence of Adam's sin.
About the kids, careful study of God's Word shows God has an age when He imputes guilt. That age is twenty. Below that all souls are saved from hell. Above that they are responsible to accept God's Gift of His Son to be saved from hell.
20? That must be a great relief to many members of the Khmer Rouge.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,525 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,525 Likes: 6 |
OP points out yet another example of the bullshit that passes for science, to its faithful.
You'd think the science supporters would rush to point out how great it is.
But instead the OP got 8 pages of crap bout teenagers in a garden.
Apparently, that explains bullshit science.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859 |
[According to God's Word Jesus was crucified from the foundation of the world. So yes God knew it. After all, God knows what we think and do before we think and do it.
So then God must have intended it that way. Of course! Do you think anything else is consistent with the Bible? Well only if you read it literally, when God is constantly surprised and disappointed by what he finds humans doing.[/quote] Show me chapter and verse where God is surprised, please.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976 |
The story of Adam and Eve and the fall makes very little sense, except as a bronze age narrative to explain why the world is the way it is, the existence of hardship and suffering. A story borrowed from older cultures and adapted to suit the cultural and religious needs of the tribe of Israel. What culture would predate the first man and woman? You choose to believe fairytales instead of sober history. Says the Young Earth Creationist. Talk about Irony.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,976 |
.... The good shepherd only needs to guide the sick, lost and wayward sheep.....
So why does he let babies and children die of cancer before they have a chance to accept jesus as their saviour thereby condeming them to hell. That's one cruel puppet master. What you call "cruel puppet master" is actually an Infinitely Wise God Who cursed the universe. If you actually read the Bible carefully you would know God is no respecter of people. Age is not considered as far as the consequence of Adam's sin. About the kids, careful study of God's Word shows God has an age when He imputes guilt. That age is twenty. Below that all souls are saved from hell. Above that they are responsible to accept God's Gift of His Son to be saved from hell. Why would God curse the universe if he made It? And where in the Bible does it specify the age of 20? Are you saying that an MS-13 member is free to commit felonies if he's 19 years old? If you are seriously asking for documentation I wrote an essay about it. I will private message it or post it here, whichever you prefer; if you say so. All MS-13 members is free to choose what he does. At age twenty God imputes guilt. How about the short version, just give the chapter and verse that stipulates 20 years of age.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859 |
[According to God's Word Jesus was crucified from the foundation of the world. So yes God knew it. After all, God knows what we think and do before we think and do it.
So then God must have intended it that way. Of course! Do you think anything else is consistent with the Bible? Well only if you read it literally, when God is constantly surprised and disappointed by what he finds humans doing. Show me chapter and verse where God is surprised, please. [/quote] As early as Genesis 6. Instances all throughout the Old Testament of God becoming angry with something the people do and seeking to destroy them. You don't become angry and destroy something if you made it to perform in the manner that it does, and know full well that it's going to do it. Jeremiah 3 has a couple more instances where God thought the people would do one thing and did another. I recall one instance in the Old Testament where God once again set out to destroy the Israelites for some reason, but Moses and I believe Aaron burnt incense, and I guess that soothed him....that doesn't seem like the actions of an omnipotent and omniscient God.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859 |
xxclaro,
You didn't show me where God was surprised. Your post reeks of anthropomorphism.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,800 |
OP points out yet another example of the bullshit that passes for science, to its faithful.
You'd think the science supporters would rush to point out how great it is.
But instead the OP got 8 pages of crap bout teenagers in a garden.
Apparently, that explains bullshit science. Nope, this is where religion discussion has led us.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
The story of Adam and Eve and the fall makes very little sense, except as a bronze age narrative to explain why the world is the way it is, the existence of hardship and suffering. A story borrowed from older cultures and adapted to suit the cultural and religious needs of the tribe of Israel. What culture would predate the first man and woman? You choose to believe fairytales instead of sober history. The point was that the Adam and Eve story was borrowed and adapted from older cultures, not that there was an actual Adam and Eve and Garden of Eden. ''Biblical myths are found mainly in the first 11 chapters of Genesis, the first book of the Bible. They are concerned with the creation of the world and the first man and woman, the origin of the current human condition, the primeval Deluge, the distribution of peoples, and the variation of languages. The basic stories are derived from the popular lore of the ancient Middle East; parallels can be found in the extant literature of the peoples of the area. The Mesopotamians, for instance, also knew of an earthly paradise such as Eden, and the figure of the cherubim....''
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 Likes: 1 |
What culture would predate the first man and woman?
Ourasphaira giraldae
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 23,506
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 23,506 |
What culture would predate the first man and woman?
Ourasphaira giraldae This ^^^^^Stumped Google and Alexa. What the?...😎
Curiosity Killed the Cat & The Prairie Dog
“Molon Labe”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
We do know God was personally regretful and disappointed in what he had done.
tis a bit strange God would be effected in such way if all was going to divine plan.
Genesis 6: (KJV)
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart
was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
That's just one of the contradictions. Another being that Yahweh was a god of war, then a God of Love.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,280
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,280 |
That's just one of the contradictions. Another being that Yahweh was a god of war, then a God of Love. Not so. No contradiction here at all. A man who loved his family.... provided for them, taught them and nurtured them could be seen as a man of love. That same man could act and be seen as a man of war if someone was harming his family. So, he is both a man of love and a man of war. Simple, yet you cannot see that in a God context.
Last edited by TF49; 09/17/19.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504 |
Well,.....let's see. If time began as a consequence of the big bang,...it would seem to me that the age of the universe depends on where one might be in the universe. At the outer edge of the expansion it's somewhere around 1/10th of a second old. Outside of the edge of the expansion, it hasn't happened yet. There is no "outer edge" or "outside" of the universe. Everything is inside it.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,640 |
That's just one of the contradictions. Another being that Yahweh was a god of war, then a God of Love. Not so. No contradiction here at all. A man who loved his family.... provided for them, taught them and nurtured them could be seen as a man of love. That same man could act and be seen as a man of war if someone was harming his family. So, he is both a man of love and a man of war. Simple, yet you cannot see that in a God context. All humans are supposed to be 'Gods children' - human parents do not kill their wayward children unless they themselves are killers. Plus you ignore verses which say God is good to all; ''But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you'' You can't have it both ways. Cherry picking does not resolve the contraction.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,859 |
xxclaro,
You didn't show me where God was surprised. Your post reeks of anthropomorphism. Then what would you call it when you expect one result, but instead get a different one and get really angry about it? Maybe surprised is not the right word, but seems close enough. The point being, the God of the old Testament does not seem to be omniscient.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,280
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,280 |
That's just one of the contradictions. Another being that Yahweh was a god of war, then a God of Love. Not so. No contradiction here at all. A man who loved his family.... provided for them, taught them and nurtured them could be seen as a man of love. That same man could act and be seen as a man of war if someone was harming his family. So, he is both a man of love and a man of war. Simple, yet you cannot see that in a God context. All humans are supposed to be 'Gods children' - human parents do not kill their wayward children unless they themselves are killers. Plus you ignore verses which say God is good to all; ''But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you'' You can't have it both ways. Cherry picking does not resolve the contraction. Nope, you’re wrong .......again. You don’t know or understand God’s Word. You set up this notional idea that “All humans are supposed to be ‘God’s children’....”.... then knock it down. How did you come to this....supposition....? Jesus clearly teaches otherwise and no, there is no biblical contradiction. These contradictions you “see” result from your own lack of understanding. Nope, not ignoring verses at all.... you clearly do not understand context..... for example... to whom is Jesus speaking in the verse reference you mentioned? It makes a difference.... but, you do not see and the result is just more meaningless squawking.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,280
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,280 |
That's just one of the contradictions. Another being that Yahweh was a god of war, then a God of Love. Not so. No contradiction here at all. A man who loved his family.... provided for them, taught them and nurtured them could be seen as a man of love. That same man could act and be seen as a man of war if someone was harming his family. So, he is both a man of love and a man of war. Simple, yet you cannot see that in a God context. All humans are supposed to be 'Gods children' - human parents do not kill their wayward children unless they themselves are killers. Plus you ignore verses which say God is good to all; ''But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you'' You can't have it both ways. Cherry picking does not resolve the contraction. So forget the verses..... can a man be seen as a man of love and also as a man of war?
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,859 |
The story of Adam and Eve and the fall makes very little sense, except as a bronze age narrative to explain why the world is the way it is, the existence of hardship and suffering. A story borrowed from older cultures and adapted to suit the cultural and religious needs of the tribe of Israel. What culture would predate the first man and woman? You choose to believe fairytales instead of sober history. The point was that the Adam and Eve story was borrowed and adapted from older cultures, not that there was an actual Adam and Eve and Garden of Eden. ''Biblical myths are found mainly in the first 11 chapters of Genesis, the first book of the Bible. They are concerned with the creation of the world and the first man and woman, the origin of the current human condition, the primeval Deluge, the distribution of peoples, and the variation of languages. The basic stories are derived from the popular lore of the ancient Middle East; parallels can be found in the extant literature of the peoples of the area. The Mesopotamians, for instance, also knew of an earthly paradise such as Eden, and the figure of the cherubim....'' You accept what others tell you or from reading yourself about what is not true because you don't want The Bible to be true. You can't help yourself from doing it.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
575 members (160user, 007FJ, 204guy, 1936M71, 222ND, 1lessdog, 54 invisible),
2,461
guests, and
1,312
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,073
Posts18,482,653
Members73,959
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
