Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters The "Other" Monos

John, are you having a bad week? You seem especially condescending on this entire thread. Kind of reminiscent of the Hollywood (elite) talking to the unwashed masses.
Just because you have killed a gabillion game animals on 17 continents and 193 countries does not mean your knowledge of your experience is any greater nor more valid than someone else’s knowledge of their experiences.
Chill out man, it’s just a conversation.
Les

Les,

Thanks for your post--but is it "just a conversation?"

Generally, I try to relate not only conclusions from my experiences but those I've gained both from observing other people--plus long conversations with a bunch of outfitters/guides/African PH's, who've seen FAR more big game taken than I have, with a wider variety of cartridges and bullets. I've gone through considerable effort to gain more knowledge than just my personal experiences.

Have been on a number of "industry" hunts where some of the participants shot one animal, then either caught a plane home or spent the rest of the week in their motel room, catching up on "work." I realized long ago that being there when an animal was taken resulted in far more information, so have often kept going out with other hunters, to observe what happened. This included autopsies of the animals, instead of letting the guide field-dress them, or just haul away the carcass. So no, I do NOT regard only my take of animals the be-all and end-all of experience.

As a result I continue to learn something every year. Which is why I grow weary about conclusions from people like Miles58, who claims to know everything about big game bullets from shooting 4 whitetails a year, at ranges no more than about 100 yards--including bullets he's never used, or even seen used.

I do admit to writing more opinionated (and caustic) posts n the past week or two--but more than one member has stated they missed that from my more "balanced" posts

This forum is named "Ask The Gunwriters," but has long been open to anybody who wants to offer an opinion. In the past few years I've tried to offer a stripped-down opinion based on my experience, in an effort to be an objective reporter. However, some Campfire members have become pretty aggressive toward me, based about what they "know," which is often based on relatively little experience. Miles58 is just one example.

Apparently I grew weary of such repeated "aggressive ignorance," as a good friend calls such opinions--because aggressive ignorance is not "just a conversation."

Thanks for your reply John.
I can certainly understand your frustrations in your work. I suffer much the same in my line of work and I also grow weary and a little testy at times with some less informed or less knowledgeable individuals.
Anyway, keep up the good fight. I’ve been a long time reader and “usually” agree with most of your writing.
Take care, Les

I think another thing at play here (and it can be any one of us), is that our occupation is something most people take seriously. If we dont, we aren't very respectful to our customers nor ourselves.

Every so often in Hunters Campfire I see questions posted about a former occupation of mine. I see half truths, examples of few and just some crappy advise.

I can only imagine how irritating it would be to have an entire blog about something I did for a living...

PS Miles58 is an ass too, which never helps.

RE: Softer monos.

Has anyone experimented with annealing the TSX? Not sure if you could do it with the TTSX with out melting the tips. Might be possible to remove and then re-place the tips.

Ross Seiegfried experimented with cutting a groove in the ogive near the bottom of the hollow point cavity, I never saw the follow up on this experiment. I put a cannelure at about the base of the hollow and it would get some to shed petals. I didn't shoot enough game to reach any conclusion with these modified X bullets. But they did kill game.

Probably better to just buy bullets designed this way to reduce the variables.

Hawk1 & MD thanks for putting up with a contentious bunch and still providing so much useful information.

I have not annealed any monos, but I think that is about what an LRX is. "Softer."

OTOH, the black tips for the Blackout also have a deeper nose cavity which allows the bullet to actually expand wider, which is what I like. It makes a noticeably bigger wound cavity but maintains the goodness of monos (i.e. weight retention for straight-line penetration, and no little lead shrapnels scattered in the meat).

Back to the OP's original question. I am not familiar with the two brands of mono bullets you inquired about. If they make light for the caliber bullet that you can push very fast that should hasten the the death of lung shot deer. I make that inference from my personal experience as I have found that 110gr Barnes TTSX .277 started at 3400+ FPS works faster with similar shot placement as compared to all the heavier bullets of any type I have tried in my, gasp,.270 (you just have to be secure in your manhood to admit to using that chambering around this website).

I don't shoot past 400 yards at big game as I don't dial for elevation, so I admit I am a dinosaur but is my father's hunting rifle so it is even older than I am and it wouldn't look right with a Nightforce or SS on it. I have only been around monolithic bullets since 1993, when my hunting partner shot a spike elk with one. I was impressed but I didn't throw my other component bullets away.

My simple understanding, not backed up by hundreds of animal carcass dissections and Bayesian statistics, is that the same frontal area of expanded bullet creates a bigger permanent wound cavity going through animal tissue when it is going around 10% faster (i.e. a 110 at 3400 as compared to a 130 at 3050). I could be wrong though. The 110 gr .277 bullet started at 3400fps is still going at 2400 fps at 400 yard according to ballistic calculators at my altitude of 7200 ft. It expands pretty well at that velocity still.

Let us know what you end up using and how they perform. Good hunting to you.

JB's assessment of how monos work in regards to the damage done vs. traditional cup and core bullets is spot on.
If you think a barnes TSX or TTSX reduces lungs to red soup I question your definition of red soup.
I might also add that I use monos exclusively now and have been for several years due to the lead issue. However, I am under no illusion that they killas quickly as lead and copper bullets because they dont. The very nature of there design hampers massive damage, which a large factor in how fast an animal expires.

I could be wrong but my conception is that with the X bullets the cavity is the same size say in the 120 and 175 grain bullets, Connie or someone else at Barnes confirmed this when they were fairly new. The 120 going faster will create more of a secondary wound channel due Roy Weatherny's favorite term hydro static shock. The slower heavier bullet acts more like an arrow with a similar primary (permanent) wound channel but less of a secondary (temporary to various degrees) wound channel. The faster bullet is more likely to shed petals and the shorter bullet would have a greater chance of tumbling. I believe I have observed this when a light bullet went through shoulder bones, but this is an unusual occurrence.

I will be shooting the Lehighs this year to see if they are more effective. But I have never lost an animal with monos so how much more effective can they be? I believe the theory and reports from animal control work seem to support the effectiveness of the petal shedding monos.

One thing to consider with barnes mono bullets and others that expand into petals is the fact most people confuse the rough diameter of the expanded bullet as frontal area when in fact it's not. While the expanded diameter of some monos my be similar to traditional bullets the frontal area often is not.

On other thing I have noticed with monos is the fact that if petals are sheared off they are often times found on the entrance side just beneath the hide. With the caveat my sample size is small.

This fact occurred to me and has led me to consider something like the E-Tip or GMX due to its more traditional circle when expanded... at least in theory. I don’t know how the difference in shape relates to effectiveness in the real world.

Monos may not do as much damage as something like a VLD, on average, but they typically do plenty of damage when driven fast, as you know.

A 5" hole through a pair of bull moose lungs, which typically aren't easy to turn to soup because of their shear size. Bullet was a 7mm 140gr TTSX driven at 3300 fps, and impact was about 200 meters, IIRC. The majority of each lung surrounding the wound path was mushy and bruised.

In all honesty that's not blood soup and you are stretching the wound open.. I have shot deer with lead and copper bullets that didnt have much of any any recognizable lung tissue left.

BWalker,

I have also found sheared-off petals near the exit hole, and not just with the TSX but the Winchester (Combined Technology) Fail Safe. Despite its lead core, the Fail Safe's hollow-point front end expanded into four petals, just like TSX's, E-Tips and GMX's.

Let me emphasize a few points:

- This is a bull moose, not a deer. If you have never opened up a moose, you won't have a good reference for just how large those sets of lungs are. Big difference between moose lungs and deer lungs, just like there's a big different between liquefying a prairie dog and a ground hog. I've also turned many deer lungs into unrecognizable chunks of tissue, but I have never done it nor seen it done to a bull moose, even with frangible bullets like A-Max, ELD, and VLD.

- I didn't say that was lung soup, I simply implied that it's plenty of damage, which it is.

- No, I'm not stretching the wound, I'm showing its size by holding it open.

Jordan, I have indeed shot a moose. I am aware that the lungs are indeed larger. The fact remains that's not impressive damage and a traditional bullet would likely do more damage.

John, I have found the same thing as well. In fact I found a single petal stuck between two ribs on the exit tide of last years elk. 30 cal 175 LRX btw.
Like I mentioned my sample size is small. Just an observation on my part.

"Impressive" is a subjective word, so I wouldn't call it a fact. The bull sure was impressed. Based on my experience with dead moose and other critters, I'm not sure a C&C bullet would have done more damage. Perhaps a VLD. Either way, it was more than enough damage to get that particular bull to give up the fight ASAP.

Definately impressive damage in my experience for a Canadian bull moose