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If you watch a movie a second time are you influencing the movie?

Or get kicked out.

Lol. If you had said “SOOO BLESSED” I’d have though you’d been handing out on Facebook too much!

. . . and it was at this point in my Presbyterian upbringing that I stopped wanting to be a Presbyterian.

Look, I don't mind the idea of an Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnipotent God. That's cool. Also, I can figure that God's got a sneaking suspicion whether or not I'm going Hell-- probably the same way I can tell that my sons ain't gonna be brain surgeons-- a father knows these things. However, if I cannot commit willful apostasy and get myself thrown into the Pit, what's the point? There's got to be Free Will in all this, or else life is freaking meaningless. We have no reason for continued Existence. God is at best apathetic and at worst a Sadist. I won't buy it.

No, I believe that God wants us to make the right choices. He does everything he can to help us. He accepts everyone that seeks Him. He can be pleasantly surprised when we surpass His expectations, and he grieves for us when we screw up. I believe that Faust's only unredeemable mistake was he believed he was unredeemable and refused forgiveness.

I left the Presbyterians at an age before I learned to drive and I have not been back. My parents quit over the Angela Davis dust-up. I stopped, because the Preby's always seemed to think they were among the Elect and somehow you weren't. Growing up in a neighborhood that all went to the same Presby church in an age before air conditioning-- at a time when folks left their windows open on hot summer nights-- I can tell you some of those self-supposed "Elect" ain't. When we moved to a predominantly Catholic neighborhood, folks were far less judgemental.

I also think the Presby's-- at least some of them-- were highly hypocritical. We quietly stopped going to the Presbyterian Church, because they'd thrown in with Angela Davis. We then shortly moved to a new house about 5 miles away. Those Presbyterians sent carloads of folks to our house over 3 years trying to get us to come back. We just stopped answering the front door after dinner for a few years. Look, if I'm a freaking apostate that's run away from the church, and there's this whole double-predestination thing, why send people out to drag you back? I mean it should be obvious to one of the Elect that we were unsaved heathens, but they wanted us back. Most importantly they wanted to know what we were going to do about our pledges. The last batch that came to the house saw me out in the street and asked about us. They obviously didn't recognize me. I recognized them right away.

"No, those people are strange," I replied. "They ain't like you and me-- if you know what I mean." That was the last carload I saw come down the street. We tried another Presby church close by, and didn't have much better luck, so we finally started going to the Methodists.

ya!


5 point (TULIP)

with supralapsarian leanings!


ya!


GWB

Nice dodge meaning you can't explain your position.

John 3:16 is pretty much the Gospel in a nutshell. And “whosoever” means just that.

Don't ya just love religious discussions here on the Fire...

DF

So how do we define time? In science it's in terms of events we can observe. An event is observed "some time" after the causal event occurs. Pull a trigger, a bullet comes out a fraction of a second later. So for us to perceive time there must be a physical reality. So time is an artifact of our reality, creation. God created physical reality which is necessary for us to perceive time yet He existed "before" creation, when there was no time. And since He created time he is not controlled by time, He could un-create it (and our physical reality) if He wished.

More in line with the OP predestination requires a before and after, a pre- and a destination. Time. Since God is exempt from time I don't understand how predestination can relate to God.

To make the assertion that we go from nonexistence to existence requires the presupposition that time exists, It is not an argument that time exists outside our reality.

This is very difficult to wrap your head around because everything we've ever experienced is intimately tied to time. We have no real concept of not-time. Now try to explain this concept to an audience in biblical times. You can't so biblical concepts are cast in terms of our physical reality (and so time) not because that's the way things are but it's the only way to get the point across.

Time is temporal. There is no time in Eternity.

When Moses asked his Name, God's reply, "I AM". Present tense, no reference to past or future tense, both functions of time, just "I AM"...

And, can we comprehend Eternity or infinity from a temporal platform...?

No, we can't...

DF

Really? Have you forgotten the end of the story?

Phil 2:9 God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The most difference between those who believe in election and those who don't is that those who believe man plays a role place way more confidence in man than I do. I totally believe in the "T" total depravity. Man is dead and at enmity with God. All good comes from God. I am cable of nothing good without God. God gets all the glory. I get nothing. I deserve nothing. I am a sorry POS

the whole predestination/free choice thingy is deeper and deeper as one drills down.

western education thought and philosophy has sold us a real bill of goods, for better or for worse.

true, we should be able to perceive on our own, whether to take the left road or the right road at the forks.

most of us can do that, at least most of the time. sometimes we know where we're headed, other times we're exploring.

we believe we were born here without our own choice. (Dr. Paul Johnson, renowned psychologist begs to differ on that point).

anyways, we were all, and i mean all born into time and space at a particular location and point in time. either with or without choice.

we're americans, not of hindu (india) descent, not chinese, not africans, not borne in the swamps of south america near the amazon river.

we attended our closest elementary school, high school, and then chose a college or not, based upon capability or ability to pay the tuition.

so we had choices, but not fully free choice. we were very limited in fact. we had many choices handed to us that we would have never chosen.

but, we can choose whether to buy crisco, or margarine. or corn flakes or rice krispies. but, if our souls belong to god, we're here at his bequest.

You mean the Peter that after Jesus said "on this rock I shall build my church", and then turned around and called him Satan? That Peter?

God is no respecter of persons. We should all know that, even when it may not be comfortable.

Peter was blessed with the revelation from God that Jesus was the Messiah. Every person that so believes the same thing is also blessed. And every person so blessed is the rock Jesus will build His church on.

In this present darkness, there are many discouraged catholics embarrassed by their church and it's leaders for many reasons, not the least of which are the priest molestations. The present pope admitted recently, there is corruption in Rome, but also that he was ok with that. Those discouraged catholics may very well be saved. Those proud of the present catholic church may face a bridge too far.

The Lord never wanted a huge hierarchical church. But as ruler of Rome, Constantine did. And then so did every succeeding "pope", because power is not only corrupting, but also addictive.

I believe he meant, "in this life". Considering that, you are both right.

God made time for us, not Him.

God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.’

I can comprehend that I will comprehend. That suffices.

If, as you say, GOD is not bound by time.....

Is HE bound by, to, anything???

His word. He takes His covenants pretty seriously.

I know the end of the story very well. God will not force anyone to love or accept him. There will be a day when those naysayers will be forced to acknowledge who He is, for sure, and they will face judgement for their choices.