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If determinism is true, the ability to have chosen or done otherwise in any given instance in time does not exist because all events proceed as determined by conditions both in the external world and within the subjective mind of the decision maker.

That's about the dumbest thing I've read in a month.

You should have a look at this for some truth - https://www.amazon.com/Where-Bible-Debt-Catholic-Church/dp/0895557967

Some of ou guys are ate up on Jack Chick. :|

About as much as I believe that everything anybody you can mention did. But the Church more than all others.

It's one of the Top 10 stupidest ideas of all time. It directly conflicts with our reason for being.

Time is a rate of change....if God exists and has thoughts and actions, that is time.

Thanks good folks, interesting inputs.

Predestination... Yes... but not how most people understand it... God predetermined the people who would go to heaven... Being the people who believed, confessed, repented, were baptized and followed his commandments... not predetermining little Suzie, little Stevie (not individual people), not individuals but the individuals who followed his commands would go to heaven... God predetermined the plan, not the man

Just read the bible.....

Hebrews 2:9... 9 But we see Jesus, who was made [a]a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Hebrews 9:12 ...12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Matthew 11:28 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

God Predetermined the plan... not the man....

The bible clearly states that God makes, amongst other things, 'vessels fitted for destruction.'

if it is clear... please give me book, chapter, verse... if you are referring to Romans 9:22 that is a common misuse of the verb tense there... and does not fit context of the passage or the Bible as well. Also how in the world would a God create a being and then say no, even if you want to be saved, you cannot since I have not chosen you...

the passages shown above clearly state Jesus died for all and that God wants all to be saved... 1 Timothy 2:3-4 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. SO either 1 Timothy 2:3-4 is a lie or the Bible COntridacts itself or the passages you refer to are not understood properly by you or taken out of context...

But follow this thought line.. if what you are trying to say is actually true (and in context that God makes people who he plans on sending to hell since he did not Choose them to be saved) then the Bible contradicts itself (which it does not)... and if you argue it does, then the bible is not God-Breathed and without error... and thus if the Bible is not without error and not God-breathed, it is no use to us as there is no way to know what if any is true.

We have free choice... if not, why would God want all of us to be saved (as he would know we could not be)... 1 Timothy 2:3-4

To post bits and pieces of scripture at the campfire is futile. There are very respected theologians on both sides of the predestination argument. Four of the five greatest theologians of all time take the position of predestination. Are they correct? Maybe, maybe not, but the fact that 4 of the 5 agree on it definitely means there's a possibility they are correct. That said, they could potentially be wrong, there are many great theologians who disagree. As for me, I'm basing my belief on my own personal experience and the experience of several close family and friends. We had zero to do with our salvation. To God we give ALL the glory.

There is no ''common misuse in the verb tense'' in Romans 9:22, the verse says what it says and the meaning is not only clear but relates to other verses that say the same thing, including that God is the Author of Evil.

There is no doubt as to the meaning of the verse:

''Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory'' - Romans 9:21-23




Regardless of what some verses say, there are other verses that undeniably say other things, which leads to cherry picking some verses and ignoring those that are inconvenient....or claiming mistranslation or such things as ''common misuse in the verb tense.''




It doesn't matter what you choose to believe, there are undeniable verses that state God as the Author of Evil and strife:


"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.'' Proverbs 16:4


"And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? Or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?" Exodus 4:11

Nor does 'evil' in this verse mean 'natural disaster' or calamity, it means 'Evil.'


"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

How's that? The way I learned it, about second grade was
6. Q. Why did God make you?
A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him for ever in heaven.

The rest is Metaphysics 101. It is irrational to assert that one can be governed by what he creates. He may choose to subject himself to what he created but he may choose otherwise. Or simply destroy his creation. Predestination requires a pre- and a destination. Time.

The best grasp on predestination I can get is it's like reading a book and skipping ahead to the last chapter to see how it all ends. You've got that much but it doesn't say anything about how things got there.

How it got there is written in the pages being skipped over....a set of described events that do not alter one bit because they are being skipped over.

How would you know that if you don't look? A sort of Schrodinger's Cat paradox.

What is written in a book is not in Superposition.

Consider Romans 9:9-24. There is clear direction there that would indicate that God calls us and makes us as we are. The potter analogy with honourable and dishonourable vessels is very clear. We may think that we have free will, but do we really?

DBT, Sorta is, you don't know what it says unless you look. Could be any course of events you could imagine and more. So while God knows the outcome perhaps He leave open the choices that will lead to that outcome. So you have pre-knowledge which is not the same as predestination. (told you I didn't get it )

To believe in free will is to deny that God is sovereign over all things and to put His workings into our hands.

The trouble with this debate and many others is that we try to figure out God through our frail and limited human minds. We can never understand God fully. We may not agree with what He does, but who are we to disagree?

If we didn't have free will what would be the point? That would reduce God to the level of a kid playing with his toy soldiers.

Free will denies God nothing. In fact it glorifies him by giving people the choice of following Him or not. It is magnanimous, a great gift.