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Always keep the eye on the ball, or prize. I this case, the Cross.

Why so many different interpretations of verses and numerous contradictory beliefs in Christianty and other religions?

I can’t answer for other religions but assume it to be the same as in Christianity. People feeling special like they have personal knowledge that’s special to them. They find a “new thing” and it’s off to the races.

True. It sounds so easy. But we sure can mess it up.



Fortunately Luther didn’t actually do that or pass on that concept/practice. He soon found that the masses, even the converted priests, now pastors, didn’t understand scripture. They went about remedying this with the small and large catechism and other aids. The idea that the “priesthood” were of the same here with no Mavericks running wild.

Romans’ is good and necessary if understood correctly. Seeing Christ in all of the Old Testament is vital also. I’ve see. Too many instances where reformed circles are too focused on doctrine and Biblical knowledge, Christ getting lost in the middle of it all.

Predestination is quite clear throughout the Bible. The whole Bible is full of people who were called of God to do His will starting with Adam, Moses, David, Mary, Jesus, The 12, Paul and on and on. Lazarus' example is one of my favourites. He was dead, bound, rotting in the grave with had no control whatsoever over his own situation until the Lord called [CALLED] him out to live again. This sounds much like our situation before God calls us.


I've never seen a sheep yet determine it's own path.

I'm about a 50/50 split between Calvin & Arminian.

Did you choose that path or was it thrust upon you?

I chose. Actually it was confirmed once I began an institute of higher learning. I had no idea, prior to that, who Calvin or Arminius even were. Once I heard their tenets I then decided that I was "a little bit Country & a little bit Rock & Roll."

I did not feel as though I was compromising my station in any manner by adopting a mix of their points. Given the way I was raised I refuse to allow any muse to be thrust upon me.

it's just really difficult imagining a human saving themselves through actions, works, faith or beliefs.

but maybe in some combination it's quite possible.

or just let god do it, since it's his job?

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation

“How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “ LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:14-17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/114/rom.10.14-17.nkjv shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “ LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:14-17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/114/rom.10.14-17.nkjv

So will those chosen to be unconditionally selected NOT be selected if they are never preached to, or hear about the Gospel?????

They have either been selected or they haven't! Why go through the effort if you can't change the outcome of anyone, selected or not????

If evangelism is required, then their selection is NOT unconditional!

I've read through the thread with great interest, as this is one subject (election/predestination) that somewhat baffles me. First of all, if it's in the Bible, I believe it, as I believe the book is the word of God, period. I also believe that the Bible does not contradict itself, and when it appears that way we just do not entirely understand what we're reading/interpreting.

My lovely bride of 34 years grew up in a very, VERY disfunctional family. She was the first to ever even graduate from high school, much less college, which she also did. Never grew up in church, went to church, or had any family members that took her there. Yet, she became a fine Christian lady, against all odds, as if God plucked her from a terrible environment and helped change her future family tree. Awesome lady. I also do not believe that God, knowing his character, would create people doomed for hell. As someone pointed out earlier, there are many verses that state God wants everyone/all to go to heaven. I believe that too. It's admittedly a somewhat confusing subject.

Because neither you or I know who will accept the word, or reject it, so you deliver the message to any and everyone. It's God's responsibility to touch their heart, it's man's free will to accept it, or ultimately reject it.

Wonder if the early first century followers of Jesus were exposed to this line of thinking (predestination) during the 15 or 20 years or more after Jesus’ death, and before the first Christian text that became part of the New Testament was even written...?

Good question.

The way we think determines the decisions we make. How we think is determined by our brain architecture/genetics interacting with our environment. Which in practice means that some folk are satisfied believing what it says in this or that holy book, while others are not. Some question beliefs and claims while others find comfort in their faith. Which has absolutely nothing to do with 'free will'

Why were they warned about 'falling away' if it were not possible!?!?!?!?

It is a pleasure to discuss spiritual matters with fine gentlemen, thank you all. One of the good parts of this forum.

Off to bed, see you in the morning, and May God bless us all.

The bible contradicts itself. You can find verses that support numerous interpretations. Denominations, sects, cults......