Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns 38 spl

With the way things are going----I just bought a 1000 pieces of 38 spl brass. I'm planning on loading them & then put them away for a rainy day. I'm thinking of 125 grain jacket HP. Is that a good choice? Both the wife & I carry --LCR & S/W airweight. I've factory Federal 125 grain HP + P in both of them. That's why I was thinking of the 125 grain HP. Got a couple 357 Rugers Security Sixes----1 is on the night stand & the other a SS is in the pickup.

Am I on the right track? Thx Bob

The 125 is going to be quicker, and should expand. The 158 flat nose is another one, not as fast but hits harder so to speak.

Personally, I like the 158-160s, as that's what shoots to the sights of my little older snubby, and I like it to shoot to the sights.

But, a 125, if going fast enough, should be equal to any 9mm 125 load out there, and apparently everyone likes a 9mm these days. Heck, even I have one. I would try to load them to at least 1150fps or more, though, if the wife can handle it.

I wouldn't just load up 1000 rounds of 38 special till you do some experimenting to find out what your gun likes and if possible, shoots to the POA. In your case add what your wife can handle as well. Personally I like what's been called the NYPD round which is a 158 grain lead SWCHP pushed enough to open up. You also want to make sure your gun likes it in the sense of length for the cylinder. I loaded up a bunch of 357 mag 170 grain SWC's recently and took 2 guns out. Security Six and 357 mag LCR. Security Six shot them very well. The cylinder was too short in the LCR and they hung out and wouldn't turn. Do some experimenting.

Yes, subbies tend to shot to a point of aim. No adjustable sights. Find out where yours is at. Most I have had or shot tend to do better with heavier lower velocity rounds. 7 yards as a minimum.

I load 150-170gr SWCs over 5gr Unique as my do all 38 load. Use it in everything from a 2” M36 to 38/44s. Does good work on everything from snakes to pigs.

More ammo is almost always a good thing...exceptions being a non-combat situation where you're the A Gunner.

Definitely check point of impact vs. point of aim with the 125 grain bullets. Had a fixed sight Ruger SP101 3" that would shoot 158 bullets at various velocities to the same POI which was right on top of the front sight but would shoot 125 grain bullets a full 14" low at 15 yards.

Yep, lighter bullets shoot lower than heavy bullets,
If sights are not adjustable, stick to the158 gr

I have been told that hollow base wadcutters were very effective when loaded with the hollow base on the top.

For what it's worth, I would start by trying to duplicate the 158 grain LSWHP +P which is what I would carry if I were carrying a .38 for SD.

Keep in mind that the OP is talking about a snub nose .38, not a 4 or 6 inch barrel. It is pointless to have a cartridge filled with more powder than will burn by the time the bullet leaves the barrel. Unless you want to impress your target with an excessive amount of flame, I guess. You are only going to get velocity from the powder that actually burns in the barrel before the bullet exits. I think it could be a challenge to get some bullets to expand properly if fired from a snub nose due to not being able to gain enough velocity. Therefore, I think a heavy bullet, such as a 158 grain SWC or a similar weight WC with a reasonable powder charge would be much more effective for a snub nose. Another factor is if you should be in a combat situation in darkness, an excessive amount of muzzle blast could impair your vision. That could be a serious problem. I have heard of some loading a WC backwards for a snub nose defensive cartridge. To me, that is an interesting concept, but I have never tried it. I don't know how the accuracy would be, but with a snub nose, you ain't gonna be doing any long range precision shooting anyhow. JMHO,YMMV.

It would be an interesting test if you had a chronograph to measure the difference in velocities with different loads being fired through different barrel lengths.

In the mid 1970s and a few times in the early80s I tried the HBWC loaded backwards. They looked cool and everyone was sure that they'd be deadly. Shot a few small to medium sized critters with them and they didn't seem any better than commercial cast 150 SWCs.

These were likely my first attempt to try and find a super bullet. The lesson learned then was that a 10 ring hit was better than an 8 ring hit. And I do shoot and believe in today's better defense bullets, but the old lessons are still true.

More powder/pressure means more velocity no matter the barrel length.

With the exception of Speer Gold Dot's "short barrel" load, most (almost all) .38 special loads, when fired from platforms like the J Frame have proven to be very inconsistent when it comes to expansion, and penetration

Due to this, the recommended practice is to shoot standard wadcutters. The standard wadcutters, not hollowbase or +p have an excellent track record for penetration. They get recommended also for the fact that they tend to shoot to the sights of most guns, and they are easy to shoot well, which is extremely important for the smaller guns, where the sharp vicious recoil or hot +p type loads tends to make people not want to practice otherwise.

Wadcutters from companies like Federal Winchester and Remington all are recommended. Wadcutters from Buffalo Bore are not, if they are going to be used in a J Frame. The additional recoil of the BB loads is not conducive to effective accuracy in a timely manner.

In your case, where you have bought 1K cases, I would pick up a few thousand 148 grain hard cast WCs and use those both in practice and in actual carry, or to put back for future use/"rainy day". Maybe load 500, and practice with 500 once you have established that a load hoots to POA/POI.

Now with that said, if you are carrying a reload for your snubby I would do the following: Carry wadcutters in the gun. Then carry a jhp or similar factory ammo for your reload. The reason is simple. Wadcutters, due to their profile are not easy to reload under stress. The rounded ogive of a typical HP makes it much more conducive to a successful reload. I keep WCs in my J Frame, and HPs on my speed strip. This is a standard practice for a number of guys I know.


148s will shoot to POA in most J Frames with a typical load.

2" barrel means less velocity, period. As in, not enough to open most hollow points reliably in 38 Spl including +P.
Heavy bullets are not your friend in short barrels.

By the way, a little thing I do for my J Frame;

I used a little chunk of AVE foam and hot glued it to the backstrap of my J Frame. Then for insurance I gave my gun a couple wraps of hockey tape. This make a huge difference both in being able to grip the gun, but also for absorbing recoil.






Years ago, when I carried this gun as a BUG on the job, I grew tired of cutting the web of my hand open practicing (I shot a lot of warm loads, as well as standard loads, and this guns literally has thousands of rounds through it.). One days while at my office I took an orange foam earplug, cut it in half and glued it on the backstrap. I took a sharpie and colored it black. It was meant to be a temporary thing but it remained that way for years and was rather effective. A number of people made comments about it, but the ones who got a chance to try it at the range, some ended up doing similar mods. The earplug foam stayed on there for a few years and a couple thousand rounds.


You can see it here:




A tiny little piece of AVE foam works even better. I glued mine on, then trimmed it to the profile of the backstrap. It makes shooting 50 rounds from the gun, much more pleasant.



Back to wadcutters, .44 caliber wadcutters are Hell on Wheels. They are not only accurate, they are are mild in the recoil department (my load is) and put a serious smackdown on whatever they hit.

I shoot these in my 38

https://www.mattsbullets.com/index....266&zenid=q1mmie0kcrc358gsilo2iai953

The situation you are in, and the bad guy/guys you face will not change, based upon what you carry. Like unwrapping a present from a stranger, you get what you get, not what you want.


After BUG quals, and the opportunity presented itself (if time allowed), I would shoot my snubby at 50 yards, both to practice proficiency, and to show a few entrenched thinkers that what they "know" as fact such as "snubby's are belly guns and not accurate past conversation distance" simply is not so.

While the majority of my snubby practice is closer, 25 yard practice has always been a regular part of the routine.

There are other guns I would rather have in my hands if I need to engage a lethal threat at extended distances, but if what I have is my J Frame, I will simply get to work, and work with the tools I have. This applies to the concept of engaging a rifle armed person when you have a handgun. Get to work.

I often read here and elsewhere how a pistol armed person has little to no chance against a person armed with a rifle. That is utter nonsense. This is not directed at Henry BTW, just a commentary on the topic in general

Below is a pic of Idaho 1945s 125 grain Maxine Mouth powder coated hollow points.. Great bullet. They shoot quite well out of both my J Frame and a Model 15. The target shot on the white piece of paper (with 6 holes) was shot at 25 yards with the 4" combat masterpiece.




@Idaho1945 is a cast bullet Master! We all know he is in a class of his own when it comes to shooting and handgun hunting, but the man also makes incredible PC bullets. He should be writing for a big publication. He has far more to offer than 99% of the people I have read in the last 20 years.

Interesting and informative thread.

Can anybody recommend a good WC bullet (for handloading) from a source that is readily available?

Also, what is AVE foam and where can you get it?

Thanks.

Paul

Is he making your .44 wadcutters?

No I have picked those up from a couple different sources over the years. I prefer 185 WCs, but the outfit I got those from was such a disaster I will never, ever order from the again. The single worst experience ordering bullets in 25+ years. Apparently I was not alone in my experience either.

The last batch of .44 wadcutters I picked up were 200 grainers from Rim Rock bullets of Montana. Great company, easy to deal with. I like both their prices and their bullets.

MIssouri Bullet company is another great outfit, though I don't believe they offer .44 WCs.

If you want to shoot them at more than target WC speeds try to stay clear of the common HBWC offered by Speer and Hornady. They will lead badly at all but the lowest speeds IME.

I shot up a couple thousand button nose WCs out of a Lyman mold that a buddy gave me. They were supremely accurate and swatted the snot out of rabbits. Cast about 12 BHN and greased with LBT lube there was no leading issues either.

Nice to see you back Mackay and an interesting topic...

Full charge 38 special double end wadcutters (dewc,) have great penetration , even when fired from a 2" snubbie. 3.5 grains Bullseye and a hardcast 150 grain dewc (NOT hollow base wadcutters, hbwc). Great self defense load.

Fwiw, loading a hbwc backwards (hollow base forward) does not give you penetration. It is not very effective for self defense (research results to prove it to yourself).

Ed Harris wrote about full charge dewc 38 special loading here:
https://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ed-harris-revisiting-the-full-charge-wadcutter/

That's what I load in my S&W model 49 humpback "Bodyguard" snubnose. ( 3.5 grains Bullseye + 150 grain hardcast dewc sized 0.359"). Accurate to 25 yards. Near 1 inch groups at point of aim at 7-10 yards. I have actually taken my model 49 out squirrel hunting with it with good success. Fun.

More discussion on 38 special full charge dewc loads here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...l-Charge-quot-38-Special-Wadcutter-Loads

44 mag full charge dewc reading here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?387589-Anyone-loading-stout-44-mag-full-wadcutters

An internet search will uncover even more in on full charge dewc in both 38 special and 44 mag. It is a very good loading, and largely overlooked.

Atomic ammo from Texas loads the hbwc reversed.

Thanks Mackay.

Buffalo Bore loads a hardcast 150 gr. wadcutter to 850 fps from a snub barrel. It is my load of choice for my Airweight S&W's.

And Underwood also.

I don't know how the accuracy would be, but with a snub nose, you ain't gonna be doing any long range precision shooting anyhow. JMHO,YMMV.

not picking on anybody, but the above comment always reminds me of a woman first name myrna. she was the wife of a instructor long time ago when i was playing county mountie. At firearms training classes, she watched everybody shoot and make excuses, then she would pull out a little snub nose smith and do head shots on a target at 50 yards.
leaving the young troops in a state of awe.
Now unsaid she was a competitor, and fired thousands of rounds a year.
i would never have wanted to be down range of her.

also reminds me of fumbling with my first rifle a winchester 94 30.30. a guy was with us that date, about age 11 for me.
he was a cook at the restaurant my mother worked at. He got tired of watching me fumble, and proceded to show me how to do it. offhand, at 100yards, hitting a beer can and making it bounce. He said you need to shoot enough till you can do that.
I never forgot him either.

Underwood runs their load at 1,000 fps. That's just enough hotter that it gets a little nasty in an Airweight snubbie. Ok in a steel frame Chief's Special, Ruger 101, ect.

I just bought a batch of Missouri Bullet Company .44 coated lead 240 grain SWCs. I have not had opportunity to try them yet. I have used their other coated bullets in other calibers and have been very pleased with them. ACME also makes very good coated lead bullets. Graf & Son and Midway both carry these brands. Also, MBC sells directly. I really like a heavy SWC design coated bullet.

The Buffalo Bore is the only way to go!!

When my middle son carries his M60 3" Pro he uses that below. Thoughts?

https://www.federalpremium.com/hand...sonal-defense-hst-micro/11-P38HST1S.html

Ed - the Lucky Gunner video on that round is worth a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXxbVP1mwGk

At 902 fps, I like the PPU 158 SWC's in my 642 Airweight. The hot HP's were getting to be a bit much on recoil since my hand injury. and who knows if the HP's are going to penetrate and expand, anyway?

The SWC's will penetrate and deliver a good chance of CNS disturbance.

https://www.sgammo.com/product/38-s...swc-158-grain-prvi-partizan-ammo-pph38ss

https://www.sgammo.com/product/38-s...swc-158-grain-prvi-partizan-ammo-pph38ss

As McKay mentioned, I carry an HKS speedloader or speed strips backup of HP's.

Thanks for all the input. I bought some Speer 158 grain semi wadcutters from Midway. They're on sale @ 8cents a bullet plus a rebate from Speer. Got free shipping today. She & I will practice with them. Then go & buy some factory loads made for the 38 LCR to CC with.

After reading the post by Mackay Sagbrush I ordered two boxes of Fiocchi 38 Special 148 grain LWC

Gotta see how they perform in my Wife's new J frame airweight.

I think lighter recoil will be a good thing for her, and it sure sounds like it will perform well.

Virgil B.

I shot a bunch of those Fiochhi wadcutters, very accurate in probably 2 dozen guns I shot them in. Be aware though that they are not a very powerful load. I wouldn’t want to get shot with one but they wouldn’t reliably penetrate a sheet of 3/8” rubber that covered our bullet trap. They’d rivet a little bit but just bounce off and fall to the floor. Not sure they’d be my pick for SD.

I suppose there is something to be said for practicing with the same ammo that you would carry for self preservation, but a tiny J frame is just not a lot of fun to shoot with full blown +P ammo. At self protection ranges, a standard practice wad cutter would not hit a target too much differently than a hot +P load. Why not practice with the mild stuff and carry the +P stuff?

Good to hear all the good things about wadcutters.

Back in the mid-80's I bought my girlfriend a 3" M-60 for a bedside gun, that was the first iteration of the one with the underlug and adjustable sights. (Liked it so much I almost didn't give it to her but that's another story. ) Anyway, with even standard 38 Spl. 158 grain loads the recoil was snappy and she had a hard time shooting accurately. Got her a box of Winchester target wadcutters and she liked those a lot and could hit very well with them, so she kept it loaded with those. We figured it was a lot better to score hits with a mild wadcutter than miss with something more powerful. They were HBWC so I don't know how efficacious they would have been but they gave her confidence and that's a good part of the battle.

My Wife is 69 and has problems with recoil, so I'm thinking like Jim. A hit with a wad cutter is better than a miss with something with more power.

Besides, McKay Sagebrush says he uses them for his BUG, where his life might depend on them. That's good enough for me!

Virgil B.

@Paul39

Paul,

I actually meant EVA foam, not AVE. It is Ethylene Vinyl Acetate. That is the technical term. Most will recognize it as those interlocking foam mats that you can get on Amazon, or Wally world etc.

This is the stuff:



Sorry I missed your question the first time around BTW.

Anybody loaded the Berrys plated dewc in .38 Special. I did so a couple years back with Bullseye and Power Pistol but will have to check the loading bench later for powder weights. Loads were sorta "educated guess" since specific data didn't exist. Loaded them out just short enough to fit and shot them in a Mod15, New Airweight and Colt Cobra. Just blasting ammo, no group measuring or chrono. Would be interested to hear other results.

Virgil,

I appreciate the Kudos.

I spent the day yesterday with Ken Hackathorn and a select group of revolver aficionados and during the course of conversation we discussed the long term effects of shooting heavy recoiling rounds through handguns. KH, myself and a couple others are all pretty much in agreement that very heavy recoiling rounds are detrimental to making fast and accurate hits. They are also detrimental to the long term health of a shooter in the form of arthritis. I can tell you from years of pounding who knows how many top end 44 magnum and .45 Colt loads through guns that my right wrist does not care for it. In fact even tonight after yesterday's session my right wrist is still sore.

Your wife is much better off shooting wadcutters, and practicing with the same than messing with loads that will hurt her. Plus wadcutters have a very good track record of penetration.


The common untested train of though that a person can train with a light load then load a very heavy one and a person will not notice the severe recoil under the stress of a deadly situation is not a road you want to go down. That is a road to severe failure. People have an extremely difficult time doing even basic tasks under life threatening situations, so adding a possible (and likely) injury to their shooting hand is not something I would recommend. I have seen trained people do pretty poorly under duress, so there is no reason to deliberately handicap your wife by setting her up to fail.

Besides, not too many bad guys are going to take a 148 grain wadcutter in the chest or guts and say "Oh that was only a wadcutter, no big deal"..


They even work in N Frames..

A self defense situation isn't likely to be like a gun fight at the OK Coral. A shot, any shot, even if it is a clean miss is very likely to change the bad guys mind that they need to look for a softer target. I kind of like the idea of those red headed +P Hornady bullets peeking out of the dangerous end of the cylinder. Just the sound of me racking the slide on my 1911 cleared two home invaders out of my place. There is a good video on one of these threads explaining the difference in a self defense scenario where the need is to distance yourself vs a law enforcement need to stop the perpetrator.

Mackay Sagebrush always brings excellent insight to these threads."The situation you are in, and the bad guy/guys you face will not change, based upon what you carry. Like unwrapping a present from a stranger, you get what you get, not what you want." This is one of the best statements that I have ever read on deadly force encounters. My take away on this is to always have a gun, it may not be the best for the situation but it is critical that you have one. When we were looking for carry guns for my daughter, we looked at the S&W 442/642 and the Ruger LCR. Both were light enough but still bulky. I have a Colt Magnum Carry that my daughter can handle effectively with Remington 357 Golden Sabre Medium velocity ammo but the bulk is there along with even more weight. We settled on a Beretta Pico in 380, she also looked at a Ruger LCP but liked the Pico better because of the sights. Is it better than a snub nose 357, no it's not but it's not far behind a 38 with wadcutters, ballistics wise. The key is that it is sufficiently small, light and probably most importantly flat that she will realistically carry it. For the statistically typical threat profile she is likely to face, 1 or 2 males within 7 feet face on, it can work. It's better than a rape whistle. It is currently loaded with 380 Hornady XTP's but I may give her the Winchester 380 FMJ flat point to carry for more penetration.

I shoot these in my two 4" S&W's (10&15's)....

http://www.acmebullet.com/bullets-r...lets/38-%20CAL-158-SWC-hard-cast-bullets

And these in my 2" Airweight that lives in my console because Mackay told me to.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=111

Kidding aside....if you read what BB has to say about them they makes perfect sense for a snubbie you don't want to reload for

A good source for hard-cast, well-made bullets. They have a couple of options for 0.359" 140-160 grain solid base wadcutters. They also have 32 and 44 Cal wadcutters.

https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=65

Not loaded ammo.

I am another happy camper using wadcutters in my first 38/357. I had a 2 cav. mold and cast my own. 3.5 or 3.6 of B EYE soon became the favorite load.

With my Dan Wesson 15 I have been able to hit clay pigeons at 100 yards. 1 hit per cylinder full.