Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles 24HC Black Rifle Challenge Thread

Will do.. I leave ft Polk today back to Alaska

Even with Varget, in this day and time, comments for the short ranges we shoot, we should NEVER weigh and trickle. In fact there is still an argument that volume of charge is more important than actual weight RE BR shooters comments. I'm so anal it hurts to dump and run. BUT Iv'e won so much stuff with dumped charges or loads run on a Dillon even with Varget or RL15 I should know better. With that said, usually no one says that federal GMM ammo sucks. Or the top line Black Hills even their contracted to the military stuff. And you know how they load that stuff....
IF anal, then try TAC... fast enough to make most happy. Ball powder. Temp stable.
FWIW 77s are kind of anomaly. They are lighter than 80s ( all the old bullets I know nothing of the newest bullets) so we think they should go faster but due to bearing length and intrusion into case capacity vs mag length, they aggravate us on paper numbers...

I dump loads of Varget in my 308 ( I've switched to a bulk ball powder lately since I have enough of it around...) but dumped Varget was plenty good to 800 or so, which is far as I've ever shot the gun on paper. It was still just under MOA for a few shots here and there, not real testing but zero verification. Good enough for me plus it didn't have much vertical. Most was horizontal.. and probably combination of wind and mirage components( 2 totally separate things)

Also use LC brass and R-P brass..

I use a lot of 77's, mostly all still SMK's as they are consistent & accurate even though there are a few 73 grain bullets today with better BC's today, the SMK's are just a known commodity & dependable.

As I said in another post, Black Hills MK-262 is nominally 2750 FPS, so my goal with everyday use 77 gr ammo is to come as close as possible to that velocity with acceptable accuracy.

Having said that, some powders, like Varget, either don't get to that velocity level or their sweet spot for accuracy is somewhere below the 2750 number to & that's OK depending on the purpose & use of the ammo.....................not everything has to be an 800 or even a 600 yard load.

I also shoot a lot of 69 grain SMK's & TMK's, & to 500 yards, there's really not much performance difference from the 77's & in some cases, the 69's are more accurate & maybe even easier to get to shoot well.

My goals & objectives with some ammo is not the same as all, & 500 yards covers most of my needs by a good margin; everyone has different goals of what they want to do.

YMMV

MM

I want to try the 69gr tmk the b.c is close or the same as the standard 77gr Sierra otm. The 77sierra otm is great bullet as well. But the 77gr tmk is even better with tad higher B.C

I've not shot enough of the 77 TMK's to say how much better or not they are than SMK's, so can't really say much about them yet.

Do you find them as consistent as the SMK's?

Here's an interesting & thought provoking article from Jack Leuba of Knight's Armament.

Be interested to hear comments.

Jack Leuba on "Accuracy"

MM

You guys all bringing up good points. Good stuff here. I know Formid likes those 77TMK's and they do very well in penetration tests. They actually pass the FBI standards and the 73 ELD match does not. Not a big deal for a target/match bullet, but if one were wanting a do it all bullet, the 77TMK would be the better choice. That and it has a higher bc than a lot of its competitors. I don't run 80's, not even sure my rifles would stabilize anything over the 77gr pill. Like I said in a previous post, I plan on taking the chrono out next time and test some loads and see what I can do with AR comp. Jeff hit on some good points about dropping charges vs. weighing them too and he's right. The highly competitive shooters don't weigh, but drop their charges. For me, that is by far the simplest and fastest approach as well... When I'm looking at loading 500 rounds of .223 rem on my single stage, Its all about dropping powder in and getting it done. Accuracy is usually very good and from what I've experienced with varget, it just doesn't meter well enough through my powder measure for me to use it. Your mileage may vary on this and I may need to get a better powder measure, but until then I'll keep dropping RL15, AR comp, H335, big game etc. etc... Now in my magnums, that's a whole different story... I weigh each charge on these big boys...:


Taking this one elk hunting this morning:

Love me those 338's, one of the finest rounds ever developed, IMO.........I've had 5 of them over time, 4 at one time.

Kilt lotsa schitt with 210 & 250 Noslers, but I've pretty much gone away from any & all magnums for anything less than dangerous game; got rid of all my 300's & 7 mags & all but one remaining 338, a Kimber BGR 89.

If I were starting load development on a 338 today, probably go with a TSX & lighter weight but I've got a lifetime supply of Noslers loaded................

RL-19 for 210's & less; RL-22 / Norma MRP for heavier than 210's has always worked very well with bughole accuracy in a decent gun.

Both versions of 4350 are generally accurate in 338's, but could never get the velocities I get from the other powders.

MM

Having shot a load of 69s before the 77s came out, I wouldn't use 69s even at 300 these days. TMKS suppose to be even better.

So when you ran the Audette test with target in 223, what parameters of powder kept you in the group and how bad does your existing measure(what kind??) throw Varget in regards to that?

I need to finish Carolyns truck gun and load up at least 100 rounds before I leave back to Alaska again, and I'm still fairly convinced for general purpose use I'm going to run her with 55 or 62 barnes. Just rambling here...That should be a for sure all around bullet for use on anything. Anyone got a good load for 55 or 62 barnes in a 16 inch tube, 7 twist?

RE stabilizing 80s. IMHO if you stabilize 77s you stabilize 80s. At least it used to be that way. 77s were harder to stabilize by just a bit IIRC.

For 80s in a 20 inch tube you had to have warm loads with a TRUE 9 twist or faster. That would stabilize any 80s that were out circa 2005 at least.

Powder measures. Don't use anything much fancy at times. Redding BR30 plenty good enough for target. Sometimes you have to get a type of rhythm to make any measure work with certain powders. You know, one tap up, one down. 2 up, one down, 2 both ways. Etc.. helps settle powder and RE cutting the pieces.

I do run a couple of harrels these days. Afraid I might have to invest in a pair for Alaska too.

Run/ran quite a few rounds on Dillon also. Someone at one point worked on adapted those bars a bit better and putting a micrometer type end on the, I had mine done that way.

Bigger kernels. The Lee cheap 15 buck die. but it won't work with ball or flake type powder worth a flip but its more than close enough on charge weights for the big magnums. Sometimes cheap lee stuff does work ok.

Worst measure I had was factory RCBS from the 70s. Not even sure who I gave that to.

Thinking I might have to start with cheap lee up here, and a good all around like a Redding. Been working lee dippers up here for bits of ammo at a time so far.

338 is just an inherently accurate round.

Enough for how, have to get some breakfast going and start work on a tiny shooting bench before I fire up the 284 tests again. And talk myself into shooting the 458 off that bench if I get that far.

Yes I find them just as consistent as the 77gr otm. I like the higher B.C with the TMK. When we shoot 300,500,600 I will use the 77gr OTM at the 300yd line.

Thanks..............I have a bunch of 77 TMK's loaded, based on preliminaries, just haven't shot a lot of them though.

On paper, they should be better but sometimes that doesn't always work out.

I've had equally good results with the Berger 77 OTM as with the 77 Sierra.

MM

I have also wanted to try that Berger 77gr otm as well... but if i remember right the B.C on the 77sierra otm as tested by Brian Litz is identical to the 77 Berger otm.

I shoot 62 TSX's with both AR-Comp & 8208, can't remember the loads & I'm not at home.............will check later. 62 TSX works very well for just about any purpose within it's BC range limits. Generally more than accurate enough for it's intended purposes.




I use a Redding 3-BR..............with Varget I see about +/- .2 - .2.5 g variance but a lot of cutting/chopping of the kernels off & on so more of an inconvenience than with 8208, AR-Comp or VV-133 (which I also use for lighter bullets). With those powders, I see almost no variation in load weights.

Alliant 2000-MR is also very fine & works very well with heavy bullets................not much load data available, & you will almost surely be over anything published if you work up loads, but it works very well & is very consistent. I have not shot a lot of it, but what I have, I like.

I just have a lot of 8208 since I got a deal on a couple of 8 lb'ers & it works on everything across the board for bullet weights so it's my go-to powder right now.

MM

Yeah, they are very close...............don't remember the exact numbers though. Berger might have a slightly longer bearing surface, IIRC.

MM

Here is my load data for 77gr TMK, this is shot out if Wylde chamber so if you are using a standard 223 chamber back it off.
24.5gr Varget
WSR primer
OAL 2.290 or BTO 1.845
L-C brass
AVG velocity 2649 out of 18inch green mtn barrel
I use ASC stainless steel mags which allows me to run a longer OAL.

I shot a 198 at 600yds with this load by far my best day. I need to buy more but powder valley is out of stock.

Thanks; all my chambers are Wylde & I do use the ASC mags as well.

I don't use WSR primers at all in AR's but I've used that load of Varget with other 77 gr bullets & either Rem 7 1/2's, CCI-41's or CCI BR-4's previously.

198 at 600 is very good shooting...........congrats.

MM

Nice job on the 198!

MM I'd appreciate the data whenever, even if in a PM only. On the barnes. Going to try to do a lot of loading when I'm in TX so I have a built up stock again of some things that I was just loading as I had time/needed. Wife is low on 10mm and 45 too... I could get lucky and load her about 10K rounds in combo by the time I head back up.

Watch those WSR primers.... those and federals have always been a no no in a floating firing pin gun to me. Had a couple of slam fires with federal. The WSRs since White Oak said no, after they changed to brass color, I trust John totally..

I forgot all about benchmark too... about the time we quit shooting mostly, it was supposed to be like varget but easier to measure.

A variance of .2/.25 gain isn't a thing to me. Again go measure known factory quality ammo it will surprise you at times.

That said if you have something working for you other there are no flies on that as long as you are happy.

I used to be so happy that folks shot the 80 smk at the time, when I shot the 80 jlk... LOL

A lot of good info you guys are bringing up. Good thread.

A lot of people still use the Sierra 80gr otm for slow fire. Even though the 77 tmk has a higher bc. I will say by far the worse bullet to get any consistency out of is the 77gr nosler custom competition. This was the bullet black hills used mk 262 mod 0 then switched to the 77gr Sierra otm mod 1 load we see in use today. I did try the 77gr rdf initially i was impressed with the first 10 shot group. I tried some other loads with different bullets. Then I shot another 10 shot group withe 77gr rdf and the group went to hell. So I’m thinking these rdf’s like clean barrels?? I should buy more and do more testing. The great thing with this bullet it has a .457 BC and you can seat it to 2.250-2.260.

Yeah, I agree, but if it's +/- that number then the spread can be as much as .5 gr difference, which is more than I want to see.

MM