Home Forums Gear Knives and Blades RAT2 D2 heat treat?

A fanboy of D2 ever since getting a D2 Ingram shorly after Steelhead exploded Gene's handmades on 24hrCF. Considering acquiring a RAT2 D2 for EDC and curious about the RAT2D2 heat treat.

What have your experiences been?

The rat2 folder isn’t a esee/Rowan made knife.

Made in tAiwan. Also heard of fakes being sold.

No idea on the heat treat on the Rat2/D2 but have had one about 6 months and sure like it. Got mine off Amazon so assume its the real deal - think I paid something like $34 bucks for mine and for that price its a nice knife IMHO.

I have one of the first run of those. It has given first rate service.

I should of added the fakes were said to be on eBay.

I’ve a couple of the AUS8. IMO, a great knife for the price.

The rat2 and kabar dozier.

Are there actually counterfeit $30 knives?

Or is there confusion with the D2 and the cheaper version.

Counterfeit d2 knives.

Made in China rather than Taiwan. Ship from China.

Thanks for the heads up on counterfeits. Ordered one directly from an established Internet dealer and paid the market value. I expect (hope) I'll end up with the authentic product.

I have the Rat2 D2 and I strop it once in a while, and it keeps razor sharp. I am very impressed for 30 bucks. I just bought another from Amazon as a spare.

I thought their D2 was very good. Mine held up better than a lot of "better" steels from other makers (Kershaw S30V and Benchmade S90V).

Update:

From all indicators, the RAT R2D2 I received is not a counterfeit.

I've had the R2D2 for a few weeks now and formed an impression. To answer my own initial question, the RAT R2D2 does not seem to hold it's edge as well as I have come to expect of D2. I've use the RAT to skin a meat sheep and two meat goats. The edge needed to be freshened with the fine stones of a Spyderco Sharpmaker and a F.Dick butcher's steel to continue to cut effortlessly. It should be mentioned that the animal skins had a bit of dried mud caked on. Although the RAT D2 edge retention did not amaze, IMO, it did perform about as well as a $40.00 knife would be expected to.

I can assure you it isn't the D2 that was lacking. More like generic shake n bake heat treat. D2 is not a steel I am very fond of, however it will perform when all is worked up properly.

But like you said how much can you really expect out of a $40 knife?

Actually, on a factory knife, I would expect top notch heat treat.
This is science, not magic.


I'm going to per in some Wheaties here, but factories should
have the best heat treat.

Artist Joe Shmo might grind a beautiful knife, handle and build a great sheath.
But, does he have the equipment to perfectly treat?


The answer is frequently, no.
Frequently, he sends it out.
To Paul Bos or another facility.
Where, they use big conveyor production ovens.
GASP! Kinda like... Ontario, and other factories.

The money is no big deal.
Time and temp, sometimes inert atmosphere. Properly done.
That's all.

That would depend on who you're so called "Artist Joe Shmo might grind a beautiful knife, handle and build a great sheath.
But, does he have the equipment to perfectly treat?" is! MINE DO!

A lot of good makers go off of the material manufacturers protocol which will yield a good heat treat. Great makers push the envelope and achieve much better results.

As to " Paul Bos or another facility." They tend to put out an ok product but not the consistency of good or great makers doing their own.

In D2, S30V, and a few more of the common steels heat treat has been pretty refined for the most part. It's the high grade and newer steels that require special attention and more advanced Heat treating.

I suspected as much the first time I stroked the R2D2 blade against the F.Dick steel. There wasn't the reassuring resonance that a 58-60 HRC blade makes.

D2 should be no less the 60 HRC, 62 being about perfect.

My personal take on some of this. Not totally to the OP's point but....

Yes the metal manufacturers do have a specific heat treatment schedule to follow for optimal performance of blades made from that steel.
There is not a lot of room for Makers to "push the envelope and achieve much better results".
To believe that Crucible Steel has not developed the schedule as good or near as good as comes out of Joe Makers shop is a little bit of a stretch.

More than likely with near similar schedules the opinion of "much better results" is more a matter of geometry and sharpening talent.

With poor heat treatment probably both heat treat and geometry and skill affect the opinion of the user.

I have personally hand sharpened a thousand or so heat treated blades starting with a .012" to .020" wide cutting edge.
Those blades were made from a variety of high carbon and high carbon stainless steels and heat treated by a variety of production
sources, custom makers and a one NASA grade metalurgist.

I have lately been using Bos H.T. I have done 126 blades from 4 different steels in 8 different batches with them.
Anyone who does not think Paul Varner is not one of the very top individuals in providing excellent heat treated blades is missing something.
Whether you meet the optimal schedule on a belt, hanging free, one at a time, or ???? is a moot point.

It is a rare person who in everyday use can tell any difference in the performance of a really good H.T.and a really great H.T.
Lab equipment would be required to know any real difference in the performances.

So, again in my opinion, great, good, or crappy blades can come from anywhere.
-------Some sources will always be at the same place in that spectrum.-------

This again is my personal hands on experience and opinions gained from that.
Tim

Tim, You should make a trip out to California and visit with Phil Wilson and then to Oregon and visit with Triple B. Then get back to me about your opinion on heat treating and Crucible's Steel. Seeing that Phil is probably Crucible's number one man. You may also find some great information from https://knifesteelnerds.com. There is a pretty good size list of makers that are pushing what is capable out of heat treating. Crucible isn't the only high end steel producer out there either. But that is a whole other story. Tim I think you know I like you. Nothing is aimed at you or any other maker on here for that matter. The reality is that there are guys pushing steels in heat treating past what has been the standard.

As for not being able to tell the difference, maybe you can not. But there are guys including myself that can. Sharpen a bunch of knives by hand on stones and a strop with diamond emulsion spray @ 1 or .5 Micron and you will learn to be able to tell the difference very fast.

Have you played with Vanex, Nitro-V, Rex 121, M390, K390, CruWear, Vanadis 4 Extra, Maxamet, 3V, 4V, 10V, 15V, or 125V? Have you heat treated them? Where do you Test your HRC on the blade and what numbers are you getting?

If my old timer sharpfinger could tell tales....Grin

I have too many miles on me to get toooo worked up over difference of opinions or to take banter toooo personal.

I believe I said that there are some makers out there pushing the envelope, but there just is not a LOT of room to push.
So the end result is not exactly a world of difference in users in the field.

And I know that some of the very top end makers have had a part in the steel mfrs products and procedures.



From above, it sounds to me like you are pushing the steel chemistry and sharpening process more than the heat treatment
----which was the O.P.s point if interest.

Sharpening-------"As for not being able to tell the difference, maybe you can not. But there are guys including myself that can. Sharpen a bunch of knives by hand on stones and a strop with diamond emulsion spray @ 1 or .5 Micron and you will learn to be able to tell the difference very fast."

Chemistry-----"Have you played with Vanex, Nitro-V, Rex 121, M390, K390, CruWear, Vanadis 4 Extra, Maxamet, 3V, 4V, 10V, 15V, or 125V? Have you heat treated them? Where do you Test your HRC on the blade and what numbers are you getting? "


1. I am knocking the work of what are considered the top end makers..... and not closing my eyes to the small differences and
I am not trying to be known as being at the top of the heap for any reason.

2. I try to make a knife that is functionally quite useful and looks fairly good.

3. I have been very pleasantly pleased with the feed back I get from customers.

4. I try not to get anal (I hate that word) about knife making as I once came close to being about reloading.

5. I do enjoy banter on a variety of topics, one of which is knives.

6. I do not have to be first in line with the next new thing. Some things are worth sticking with.


And, yes I still have my Sharp Finger. The second fixed blade I ever owned. The first is a Kinfolks which I still have.


Happy Thanksgiving to all.
My apology to carbon12 if he feels we ruined his post.

Tim
PS: I do not intend to come off as an expert or being absolutely correct, just present my experience, thoughts and opinions.
If I want "absolutely correct" I will ask my wife.

PS:

Alan
I think I have improved my product a measureable amount since the ones you got 10 years ago.
My goal is to keep improving, but I am not going for first place in the market place.

I learn a little here and there, but take almost nothing as "The gospel".
Just trying to fill a niche with the everyday user.
If it works for me and them, it is a winner in my book.

carbon12---Get the knife you are currently interested in and go from there.

Tim

Not at all.

Appreciate the responses to and fro.

I have used and enjoyed your knives very much. I am sure your work has improved since then for sure. But I wouldn't say your work was ever not good!

As revealed on this thread, after reading and watching a bunch of reviews of the RAT D2, I ordered one.
I was hoping for a wicked good D2 EDC for small money. After using it, I would rate it as: meh. Better than any of the 8Cr13Mov folders I have, but not by much.

[quote=michiganroadkill]

I believe I said that there are some makers out there pushing the envelope, but there just is not a LOT of room to push.
So the end result is not exactly a world of difference in users in the field.

Actually there is room and guys are pushing very hard. Look at cutting competitions as in chef knives, not the abusing chopper comp's. The heat treat is where there is the most room to seperate a great knife from the best of the best. Because angle, BTE, etc are pretty much developed to the most effective possible by all makers. Retaining the edge is what makes one a winner over the others. So we know that two things are the key ingredients for that, Steel type and Heat Treat.

And From above, it sounds to me like you are pushing the steel chemistry and sharpening process more than the heat treatment
----which was the O.P.s point if interest.

NOT at all! I pointed out to the OP that it was not the steel and that it was lack of proper heat treat.


6. I do not have to be first in line with the next new thing. Some things are worth sticking with.

Yeah it has worked for some makers. The average guy isn't a knife loonie. They care little if any about the knife other than it gets the job done. In all fairness pretty much any crap factory knife can and will get the job done. Hence how and why companies like Buck are able to stay in business. If someone has never used the best of something they don't know and or see value in something designed to excel. I have never driven a Bugatti and I don't see the value in one. I am pretty sure if I drove one I would want one! Hunters aren't exactly big spenders as a whole. So a $800 ++++ knife to them isn't even on their radar. Then you have the guys that do want a more efficient knife and dive into the custom market. Most stay in the lower end price point wise. Why? Because it gives them much improvement over a factory knife but is still in general terms not going to break the back.

Most don't understand the cost of making a knife as well. So you as a maker need to A) buy materials, tools, and supplies. B) need to be paid for your time. And C) hopefully make a profit. There are belts that cost $1K a piece. How many makers can afford a belt like that? Not many and those that could I bet are not willing to spend the coin. So when average guy see's a custom knife for sale at $800 ++++ isn't thinking about the cost to making a knife and or the makers time. What I find funny is makers up charge for the premium steels that eat belts. But they make it sound like its because of the cost of the blank. When in reality it is the time needed to grind and the belts need. The blank is not a huge cost.

You make a great knife at a very good price point. Your knives are head and shoulders about any factory made knife. I would say your work is in the area of most of the popular custom makers. I have suggest many people to your knives.

I am a connoisseur of knives. I see value in all well made knives. I follow fairly close the knife world. I can tell you that we live in a time where steel and heat treat are getting very close to perfection. However there are very few makers that want to put in the time, effort, and money to cultivate them. I totally understand why also. So I do thank, support, and admire those few that are diving into it.

I have a design in mind for you. When you finish up the big orders you have I'll see if you are interested in making it.

Happy Thanksgiving to you Tim.

Thanks MCH for you posts.

I should be done with this go round of M4 in Jan.
I am not planning a next program at this time.
I do have blades and blanks left over in CPM 154, S30V and M4 so will probably clean out some of that inventory.
Maybe Vince could pass them on for me.

carbon12---What is meh about the knife?????

BTW I am not a folder guy other than I always carry a small 3 blade US made Schrade product in my pocket.
I did, in a former life, grind about a zillion blades for Pro Tech though and have one of there knives with a blade I ground.,

Cut on
Tim

[quote=michiganroadkill
carbon12---What is meh about the knife?????


Tim[/quote]

Mediocre HT not befitting of D2.

again...deleted..