Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Lessons learned. Steep price

The article states that the Good Samaritan had “fended off a few robberies when he owned his [music] store”.

If I’m in a Pawnshop and an armed robber or robbers burst in I’m prob’ly more likely to be surprised and not do anything in thatvfirst critical moment. I’ve never been in that situation before. If I had my granddaughter with me my immediate focus would be keeping her safe.

The Good Samaritan had faced robberies before, and may have reacted according to that de-facto training.

I recall the band Sugar Shack, tho I never saw them play. Hey, an armed rock n’ roller and dedicated musician who had faced down bad guys in his past. That gentleman was a sad loss 🙁

Brother you weren't quarterbacking.

And it did look like there was a draw, presentation, and perhaps not a round fired, whereas the BG did not hesitate, he indexed and fired, so your comments are spot on, as far as we can tell from the film.

This brings up a pretty good point about presentations, and how guys do them. There is most definitely a right and wrong way. When done right, even if you are not completely extended, you can get on the trigger and be firing before you are completely extended, if the situations warrants it. Those are the types of skill sets that go beyond the usual feel good fluff that 95+% of CCW holders do though.

When I used to teach, and would hold smaller, "beyond the basics" type classes these skill sets are exactly the types of things we would cover.

What is the lesson here Mackay? Is it if you pull your pistol you better be pulling and shooting instead of thinking pulling the pistol will make the bad buy stop what they are doing? Is the lesson if you feel the need to pull your gun don't be a dumbass and point it at the bad guy that has his gun in his hand already unless you are shooting? Is it strategic retreat further away to get some cover or obstruction before you pull your gun?? Or have I missed the point entirely?

Yep.

Jimmy,

Here's some of the things I take from it.

1. A CCW and shooting flat targets on a flat range don't make you superman.

2. No plan survives contact with the enemy, especially when they are determined, 20 to 30 years younger than you, and have zero regard for your life.

3. Never draw from the drop. a "fast" draw from light concealment is about a second and a half. That's a looooong time when someone in peak shape has a gun pointed at you. You need to "wait your turn".

4. Sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor. Is seems to me (critiquing this from comfort of my own home over a hot cup of coffee), the thugs were on the way out when he pulled his gun, and the shooting didn't start until he pulled. It's likely this would of ended better if he'd just let them go.

5. We are not 20 anymore. We don't have the speed, reflexes and endurance that we did when we were 20. Many of us don't have the waistline, nor the knee's. Look at the guys on here with sleep apnea, and cancer, and who know's what other conditions that may affect our performance in these situations. We need to be self aware and honest with ourselves regarding these before we have to make that snap draw/don't draw, shoot/don't shoot decision.

I'm sure there's other lessons, but those were just a few of my big picture thoughts.

Wild Bill Hickok advised that, when in a gun fight, take your time in a hurry, or something to that effect.

Bill also know how to "wait his turn":

In September 1869, his first month as sheriff, Hickok killed two men. The first was Bill Mulvey, who was rampaging through town, drunk, shooting out mirrors and whisky bottles behind bars. Citizens warned Mulvey to behave, because Hickok was sheriff. Mulvey angrily declared that he had come to town to kill Hickok. When he saw Hickok, he leveled his cocked rifle at him. Hickok waved his hand past Mulvey at some onlookers and yelled, "Don't shoot him in the back; he is drunk." Mulvey wheeled his horse around to face those who might shoot him from behind, and before he realized he had been fooled, Hickok shot him through the temple

I like that story of Wild Bill. He was clever and shrewd. Probably cold as ice as well, hands steady, and a good pistol shot. He was a killer. In my know nothing opinion, it seemed to me that the dumb ass in the video drew his gun on a gun pointed at him at point blank range, sadly Darwin extracts a toll for stupidity. Sorry the man is dead, hope they give the needle to his killer.

Unless you think they are about to shoot. Don't start a fight when the odds are stacked against you. He was outnumbered. He was physically outclassed. He was slower.

If he had no choice, and they had started to shoot people, that would have been different, but they hadn't.

There is something called the OODA Loop. Observe Orient Decide Act.

It goes all the way back to WW2 pilot days and it is still spot on today.

Oddly enough, I was just discussing this with one of my guys about a month and a half ago.

We were speaking in the context of when a fight starts, physical or otherwise. I told him that I have used a method when dealing with people I knew I was about to get into a physical fight with/do a take-down.

Most guys talk crap or do some sort of posturing before a fight (which is stupid). If given time, I formulate a game plan.

Then I would ask them a question.

In that brief moment while they were thinking about an answer, I would hit them.

The reason is they would be off-guard better than 95% of the time.


They would be busy thinking about a response to the question.

They would be way behind the curve, and trying to catch up, I had already acted, and they were still mentally in the orient phase, and caught off guard.






Back to this case, I can understand if he did not want to retreat, as perhaps there was concern of leaving the female in the store, or getting shot in the back. Sometimes the best course of action, is to keep your hands visible and give the illusion that you are not a threat, even if you absolutely are and they don't know it.

Over the course of 20 years, I have been in two convenience stores during robbery attempts as an LEO. One I was in full uniform (I had not even been to the academy yet that one I think I have told here before, was sort of funny afterwards, though it scared the hell out of me when it happened ) and the other I was off duty,and fortunately with my work partner. Neither went according the way the BGs expected.

No citizens were hurt in either episode. On the second one, the locals were running silent code (that thing that all the cop haters here complain about) and I did nothing but circle the aisles making sure I had a clean shot on him/clear background when and if it got loud. The guy was eyeing me and was concerned about me, which caused him to hesitate, which worked out for everyone. Fortunately, the uniforms got there quick and snatched him up, and I didn't have to spend my days off being involved in a UOF investigation. Sometimes the best course of action is just keeping things calm and cool.

Observe Orient Decide Act...yes

That was a central aspect of my Jiu-Jitsu training back in the 1970s and '80s. Ask a question, and as soon as the other guy's mouth moves, go into action. Like you said, the other guy's mind is focused on a response just at that moment, rather than preparing for your action.

What type of question are you asking in this type of scenario? Something like...”which do you think is better, 9mm or 45 (or the old 270 vs 30-06)?” I like the ‘ask a question, start your action immediately‘ process. I’m going to add that to my training regimen.

Maybe ask them if they carry one in the chamber or not?
That should start some dialogue.
How about Black Talon vs the old SilverTips?

Sample question: "Okay, okay, what do you want me to do, man?" Try to look and sound scared and non-threatening, hands up by your ears, palms forward.

You have to bear in mind that you have already committed 100% to full on combat.

This is not witty dialog. This is a confusing question to catch them of guard for literally 1 second, right before you follow it up with a very violent series of actions on your part.

You asked for an example: Do you have the money?

As they are saying "what?" with a confused look, you have already loaded up and are delivering whatever is appropriate for this situation. That can be a punch to the face followed by knee strikes driving knees to the face or solar plexus and end the fight as quickly as possible. Going toe to toe with people is stupid, so while to the untrained eye, it always looks like it is overly brutal, knocking a guy down, or out quickly in the long run saves you from getting injured and can often save them from more extensive injuries than knock down drag out "fair fights" do. Besides, I was never in the business to fight.


The Movie "Open Range" filmed the PERFECT example of OODA loop, though I am not sure they realized they did.
At the start of the gunfight, Kevin Costner asks the gunfighter " You the one who killed our friend?"

While the gunfighter was responding with his answer, Costner drew and put a bullet in his forehead.

That is OODA Loop.

Watch Here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEneQFEFgMQ




So here is a classic example of a good clean takedown by an LEO:

Following the rule I talked about earlier "where the head goes, the body follows"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU6srWXxTww



Basic stuff.


Not fancy but it works.

Slightly off topic,
There was an old man around here who used to like bar fights.
He was infamous for getting in close to whoever was talking crap,
Suddenly he would bust out laughing.
Then slug them in the nose.
At that point he owned them.

I think that the two second lead the guy has who already has his weapon out and at the ready is plenty of time to acquire you as you draw and fire on you.

Per the video.

The good guy was at a tactical disadvantage with two armed opponents both of whom had weapons out and at the ready. Unless the situation be came dire, like them shooting the woman behind the counter, he should have waited for some distraction (like them shooting the woman behind the counter) to draw and fire.

Never been in a close quarters gunfight. So I’m just guessing.

Boxed quite a bit as a young man, and been in more than my share of bar fights.

That’s left me wanting some of that “tactical advantage” whenever and however I can get some.

Thirty years "on the job" here. When talking, I "talk with my hands" at chest level and out in front of me. If the time should come that I know I'm going to have to go hands on there's a time for talking and a time to push the go button. Sudden overwhelming violence gains quick control and limits resistance and that is better for everyone.

Not many options, if at all, IF you DECIDE to act and there is NO cover when confronted with an armed perp.

***MAYBE*** you may gain a half second while drawing your weapon if you are ABLE to hit the dirt making yourself a smaller target while firing.

Other option would be to notify the perp that you thought the guy he shot was wearing a money belt...


Nice takedown, but problematic legally in Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, et al.

Short distance between the subject and the first officer made me nervous.

I believe a failure to commit and follow through instantly, has cost or ruined more good guy lives than lack of skill at arms.

Big proponent of OODA here, AKA 'turning the tables' before I learned the concept had been quantified by the military. It saved my life on both ends of a long career, including the last 30 minutes of the last shift.

I was not in the business to fight either; but I damn sure wasn't in the business to lose.