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This CCW holder/customer drew on two armed robbers who were robbing a pawn shop.


https://abc13.com/video-shows-robbers-storm-pawn-shop-where-customer-was-killed/5714349/



It cost him his life.

Truly sad and unfortunate.

I am sharing this not to make fun or belittle this gentleman, as he made a choice.
May he rest in peace, and May God Bless him for trying to do what he felt was right.
I am sharing it so that others may take from this experience and learn.

Also, not being a tech guy, if anyone can make this a regular vid rather than I hot link I would appreciate it.

MS.


THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.

The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.

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Damn.

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I'm not in the Cop business, I don't do Cop stuff, and bullets are real. Looks like he missed and the scum didnt.
Sorry for the family. Fortunately, good guys win a lot more than they lose.

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Fast and furious. Fight or flight...

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That sucks. One advantage that bad guys have is they often have already crossed the threshold of doing violence. You have to know that bad guys are often the survivors of schit situations. You’re engaging an experienced survivor.

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Gun fights aren't pretty, and should be avoided at all costs. He drew on the perp when the perp wasn't looking at him. It was close range, and he had a good bit of "advantage". And it still ended his life.

Just goes to show, when bullets fly you need to seriously think about joining in, because it very well may end up costing you your own life.

It's horrible to watch, but we can also learn from the tragedy. Whole thing sucks though!

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I carry a handgun to protect myself and my family. If all others did the same, life would be groovy


'If you say the parent you were most afraid when you were a kid was your dad, you grew up in the city.'
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Originally Posted by GunGeek
Gun fights aren't pretty, and should be avoided at all costs. He drew on the perp when the perp wasn't looking at him. It was close range, and he had a good bit of "advantage". And it still ended his life.

Just goes to show, when bullets fly you need to seriously think about joining in, because it very well may end up costing you your own life.

It's horrible to watch, but we can also learn from the tragedy. Whole thing sucks though!


Yep...


Don't ask me about my military service or heroic acts...most of it is untrue.

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It bugs me when people talk about " range toys".
They are deadly weapons. To bad this guy went against two guys that were not playing around.


I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Pretty obvious that this was not the first time for the two perps. But perhaps a first for the poor soul who decided to get involved.


At some point my hobbies became my life.
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That video gives an excellent view of at one of the faces of those 2 swine.


Slaves get what they need. Free men get what they want.

Rehabilitation is way overrated.

Orwell wasn't wrong.

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Originally Posted by Gooch_McGrundle
That sucks. One advantage that bad guys have is they often have already crossed the threshold of doing violence. You have to know that bad guys are often the survivors of schit situations. You’re engaging an experienced survivor.



I would doubt that those two murderers had ever been in a gunfight. As a longtime high school teacher in a poorer urban setting I can testify that young men do have exceedingly fast reaction times and are often quite athletic. Those two guys would have been already hyped up on adrenalin and possibly drugs just walking in the door.

At least it demonstrates how fast things can go down, I’m not sure if the armed citizen had time to asses the situation before he reflexively drew his weapon. I’m not sure in that moment he knew the odds were 2:1.

Note the speed and agility of the one perp who was over and behind the counter in a heartbeat.

It is notable that from the moment shots were fired the motive of the two perps was flight, firing as they fled the scene. It seems criminals looking for victims aren’t interested in gunfights.

What if’s.... what if’s..... but maybe if the armed citizen had taken a moment to assess and fired from behind cover.


"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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This video is why I think a 45 acp is best.
When you are at close range and things are happening fast.
Two against one, maybe he never really had a chance
Other than a home invasion. I will probably never be in this situation. He should have had a kevlar vest.


I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Originally Posted by whelennut
It bugs me when people talk about " range toys".
They are deadly weapons. To bad this guy went against two guys that were not playing around.


I don't think "range toys" has anything to do with the topic at hand. Lots of us have guns that aren't something we'd carry for defense, hunt, or go to war with; there's nothing wrong with recognizing that some guns don't have a place in those activities. That's what "range toy" means, like a competition unlimited pistol that is purely intended for competition at the range.

Caliber debates have no place in this either. That's missing the forest because of the trees.

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MS - that is a steep learning curve for sure. I couldn't tell from the video, is it known if the CCW guy actually fired (and did he hit?), or did he point the gun and hesitate?

That's a bad situation for sure either way, but does show that hesitation can be fatal (whether that guy did or not).

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"hesitation" - bad.

Birdwatcher's "...behind cover" - usually good...hopefully.


Don't ask me about my military service or heroic acts...most of it is untrue.

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Well damn, if you're going to go, you have to go NOW, and go ACCURATE, God rest his helpful soul.


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It is unclear from the video if he got a round off or not.

While it is easy to be critical of this incident, as we have the luxury of knowing the outcome, some of us, especially those who made a profession of actually hunting the worst predators that prey on the weak of society need to bear a couple things in mind;

After watching the video the first thought was "He should have kept his hands up and visible, to show (or give the illusion) he was not a threat to the two scumbags."

Even if to mentally have them orient themselves elsewhere.

That said,

Most who have hunted that particular 1% of the human race can relate to the mental process of looking at a person and pre-gaming your attack mode. Maybe not necessarily in this case, but thinking "I am going to leg sweep/face grab and drive this dude's head into the dirt, followed by knee drive to the Solar Plexus" (Thus ending 99% of crap before it becomes a knock down drag out)

Thus following my personal #1 rule of "where the head goes, the body follows".

Anyways, while I would like to think I would have not done anything, kept hands visible and let these guys do their bit, and let them walk, as long as they did not get physically violent, or start shooting, I also bear in mind that some of us are wired a certain way.

In short, I don't fault this guy one bit, as he stepped up. He just bit off more than he could chew.

A lot of guys think that if they have a gun and poke holes in paper that is all the training they need. They are absolutely fooling themselves.

I have read stuff on here about how so and so will neatly put two rounds from his J Frame into the button of villain # 1 and then two rounds into villain #2, as if these guys are going to hold perfectly still.

Reality is more like trying to make hits on a dude rushing you, during the initial snap of an NFL game. That is how fast some of these guys are moving, and how agile these guys are.

Plus they are shooting at you.

On top of that, if you have deliberately, unknowingly or whatever, put yourself between them and freedom, they are coming right through you.

The other thing I read constantly, is "I am not a cop, I will just run/walk away". That is fine, "IF" it is the type of criminal that is oriented to let you.

In this video you saw how easily one of the guys leaped over the counter top, as easily as many of the posters here step off of a curb. How many guys here can leap over a 4 foot tall counter and not even touch it with your shoes?

Do you honestly think you are going to pull the NIKE Defense if one of these guys has other plans?

This is all where getting serious about making fast and accurate hits with a gun that you shoot very well (versus one you find comfortable) comes into play.

This is NOT where I want a POS .380 Bodyguard, Keltec, or other pocket gun.

This is also where I want to consider having actually spent some time training, not just range masturbation.

It is easy to go make noise and feel good about poking holes in big targets without a timer, never really pushing yourself to improve and tell yourself that you are good.

Find an accomplished shooter, who is better than you and go shoot with them. Have him critique you. Critique each other. Spend the majority of your time working on your weaknesses, not your strengths.

I have a very good buddy who is a grand master level shooter. He is and always will be a better shooter than I am. He is great to shoot with, as I get feedback that helps me improve.

He also happens to be a master at the art of making holsters!

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

He is shown here in the black with Ken H.

When I first started shooting IPSC/USPSA long ago, I spent years squadding up with him. I always learned something. It never hurt my ego one bit to be beat by a guy who was simply a better shooter. He and others like him on the "super squad"made me a much better shooter than I ever could have been otherwise.


Anyways, there are a lot of good lessons to be learned here, and though this man may have failed, he stepped up. Using his video to generate discussion and learn some lessons is one way to actually in a small way say thanks stepping into the arena.



Teddy Roosevelt:


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."


THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.

The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.

The website is up and running!

www.lostriverammocompany.com

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All very good points MS, and I agree with all of that. Well said.

I do hope my comments above were not taken as armchair quarter-backing; I wasn't there and I'm not going to criticize the guy who got shot. A video like this doesn't give us the whole scenario, but does demonstrate some learning points as you pointed out. Thanks for sharing it.

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It looked like the perps came in locked and loaded. Life to fight another day, fight or flight.

Had that video just shown a hold up and everyone lived, a lot of guys would have been like.... i woulda, he shoulda, if he coulda, you know the “woulds “. Then it would have turned into the 1911 vs Glock 9 mm vs appendix, weapons light or not rant.

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