Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Backpack Hunting Body Fueling- the answer(s) to my needs ?

One of my big problems is eating. If I eat too much, I get fat. If I don't eat enough, I get weak and the effect is cummulative.
So, I've been looking for answers. More answers, I already know a few things. I've got an extensive back ground in the sciences. A minor degree in chemistry, college level stuff, including lab work, on how the human body works. I've followed the writings in the University of California's Wellness Letter for about 15 years.
When we don't eat enough, the body goes into Stravation Posture. It literally consumes itself to give us the energy it needs to keep us going. It not only consumes fat, but muscles as well. At the same time. Well known process. Dieters loose muscle just as fast as they do fat. They can put fat back on far faster than their bodys can replace the lost muscle. That's why they gain it back so fast. They loose their muscle tissue as well as fat. Since muscle burns 98% of our calories, they can't keep it off like they used to.
The really important thing is how this process starts. The body's primary fuel is Glycogen. Our best sources are the complex carbohydrates. Our bodies can make Glycogen out of protein, and our own body tissues, like muscle, if it must. Fat is our emergency energy supply. It's primary function is to keep us alive as we strave, consuming out own bodys.
Normally, we have enough Glycogen in our bodys to allow us to burn our precious emergency fuel, fat, as well as Glycogen. But when we start running low of stored Glycogen, the first thing that happens is we stop using fat. The body starts using just our stored Glycogen. We feel hungry. We don't have much of it. Really fit people have the most. But all of us have little of it compared to our fat stores. When the stored Glcogen gets too low, we begin Stravation Posture. We start converting our muscle to Glycogen and using our hoarded fat. At the same time. This is sometimes known as Death March Syndrome. It produces all sorts of nasty by products which can take quite a while for the body to rid itself of. Our immunities to diseases lowers. We chill more easily, etc. All bad
Carbohydrates have a bad rap. Used at the point where we really need them, we need to use the right kind. Simple carbohydrates are the sugars. They are ready for immediate use. If we eat them at the point where our bodies are getiing too low on stored Glycogen, they overload the system. The body reacts with a heavy response of insulin to control the sugar spike. After the Glycogen level is under control, it takes a while for the insulin level to return to normal. In the meantime, there is no more fresh Glycogen entering the system. And the insulin in the system prevents the use of stored fat. We crash.
Complex carbohydrates don't do this to us. They allow a steady flow of new Glycogen to enter the body's muscle tissues slowly. They don't envoke an significant insulin response. Our energy level is maintained. Since our Glycogen levels are what we need, we can use fat as well as Glycogen for energy.
What gets me about all this, is I knew it already. Most of it. Except for the triggers and the insulin spike after effects.
How am I using this this hike farther, and maintain my energy levels ? I eat differently. I eat more. More complex carbohydrates, and much less fat. I eat between meals. Complex carbohydrates. I keep my fat level below 20% of all my caloric intake. Actually, 10% would be best. How does one do this ? Read the information on the package of food. If it has less than 4 grams of fat per serving, I won't get fat. Actually, I will loose fat and gain muscle. No Stravation Posture. I just keep my body's Glycogen level up so I can use fat.
I got this all pulled together in a great book, BodyFueling by Robyn Landis.
The next time I go into the boonies for a long, tough hike; I know what to eat. And when. No more Trail Mix with lots of nuts. Too much fat and too few complex carbohydrates. A Bagel, a low fat energy bar with minimal suger but lots of complex carbohydrates, or anything like these for a total of 30-75 grams of carbohydrates. No more tham 0-10 grams of fat. No going w/o at least a snack for longer than 3 hours. And a meal, two servings of protein, 12-16 grams, and four servings of carbohydrates, 60-150 grams worth, per meal, every 6 hours. E

E, like to talk to you more on this. Sent you a P.M.

Phil

Excellent post, E.

Kudos.

Rick

E:

On the nose!!

JimF

E,
well said on the insulin response due to simple sugar intake. I take advantage of that spike after working out by consuming simple carbs to help shuttle more of the protien from my next meal into the muscle. But at other times of the day, the higher insulin levels are definatley not benificial. But i dont see it on the fat intake. Dont you think that a decent amount of good fat intake from foods such as nuts, and fish fats and flax seeds with omega3's are important? I was under the impression that a higher fat intake slows the absorbtion rates of protien? Besides the health benefits of good fat intake, the nuts you might take on a trip are much more calorie dense, and convienent for packing. And they taste gooood!

I eat more. More complex carbohydrates

Thanks for the post...I can, and frequently do, go without eating anything but a bowl of cereal and lots of water in a 24 hour period of time while doing physical work and exercise. Not dieting, just not hungry. What are some examples of complx carbohydrates one can eat? Thanks.

I understand muscle build up requires lots of time, while fat is placed directly into storage. I don't know if you can speed the process by an insulin charge in the system. It doesn't make sense, but I really don't know.
You only burn fat when you have oxygen in the system, not during anaerobic activity. You must have plenty of glycogen in your system to do that. When the Glycogen level drops, the fat burn quits. It doesn't start back up until either your system recieves more glycogen from food intake, or it drops so low you enter Stravation Posture.
Fat is necessary. Your body can make it's own if it needs to from protein, and complex carbohydrates. Pretty hard to find food w/o some. You need little of it. A 10% fat diet is plenty healthy. E

Complex carbohydrates are all sort of breads, rice, beans, tortillos, Bagels, cakes, potatoes. Any kind of starch item in the diet. E

E,
Great thread, I printed it out for reference. Thanks, MtnHtr

The Glycemic indes (GI) is a measure of how much certain foods affect the blood sugar levels ( how fast they turn into sugar), in turn causing the insulin response. Just because a food is "complex" carbohydrates, doesnt mean it is any better at maintaing a steady blood glucose level. You have to look at the GI for the foods. For example, potatoes are commonly thought of as a good complex carbohydrate, but they have a GI higher than table sugar.

Insulin is the carrier of nutirients to your cells. Insulin also prevents the break down of body fat and the use of it for energy. When you eat low GI (glycemic index) carbs you greatly reduce the amount of insulin needed to shuttle the glucose to where it needs to be. Low GI carbs, because they maintain and steady blood glucose level, won't cause up and downs in energy levels like high GI carbs will.

Examples of high GI carbs are most cereals, bagels, white rice, potatoes, white bread, and basicly anything sugary, starchy, or processed. Some low GI carbs are barley, oats, brown rice, whole grain bread, beans, lentils, pinto and lima beans, and pasta.

check it out
here is some good info

I dated a diabetic girl for a while, so i did a lot of research on insulin and food. She is an athlete, and uses an insulin pump, and she would sometimes give herself an extra shot of insulin after a workout and before a meal. That is probably the only time when high gi carbs are really good. If you raise the insulin after a workout and before a meal, it really is effective in increasing the transfer of nutrients to the muscle cells.

I thought i would add: Fats are important. There are essential fatty acids, Linoleic Acid (LA) and Alpha Linolenic Acid (ALA) that the body cannot produce on its own. Monounsaturated fats can reduce blood cholesterol levels. Omega 3 fatty acids protect against heart disease by inhibiting the formation of blood clots. My opinion is people shouldnt drasticly reduce their fat intake, but they should get fats from good sources. I eat a ton of natural peanut butter <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> , and i eat a lot of fish. I read once somewhere, dont remember where, that the eskimos have the highest average fat intake and the lowest rate of heart disease. Food for thought <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've got no argument with the idea that fats are essential. A most important vitamin group, for instance, are the fat soluble vitamins, like A, D, E, and K. They need fat to work as they should, etc. Another point is that even the "evil" fat that produces LDL cholesterol is a part of our cell wall composition. We gotta have some in our diet, and /or the body makes it.
Having a carbohydrate break down into sugar fast may be an issue for a diabetic, but not for most of us. It's the drop off the "sugar high" that hurts us, not the high itself. The fast acting carb food should last a while. The potatoe you mention as not a particularly good food, has the equivalent calories of three servings of carbohydrates. that means it will last for a while and allow the insulin levels to perform as they should. Naturally we should not eat just one complex carbohydrate food, but several. Table sugar, BTW, isn't easily, or very rapidly digested. But it will cause the spike and the drop because it is "empty calories." Simple sugars, the ones that hit us immediately, are the worst of the sugar spike and drop problem.
I do appreciate the information. Don't misunderstand me. I intend to use that information in making my food choices.
I understand the idea of getting proteins to the muscles as well. But repair of muscle, or addition of more muscle, comes most of the time when we sleep. When we are using them, the body is mostly concerned with flushing out waste products, supplying glycogen, and oxygen. It needs to do that first. Some of those waste products, like free radicals, will actually damage the cell walls, and the cells themselves just because they react like that.
The whole philosophy pushed in Bodyfueling is that we have a marvelous machine in our own bodys. If we give it what it works best on, it performs best.
My understanding is that Eskimos are remarkably heart attack free. But they do suffer from many other things associated with being overweight. Still the Omega3 fats are significant. I eat Tuna, for instance. A great, low fat whole protein source. E

Finally, a post telling me that I NEED to eat <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Fortunately I've always been a whole-grain bread fan. Maybe it's even good for me (just downed three slices for lunch).

Regarding trail nutrition, here's an opinion for testing. We all know that good nutrition is necessary. Ample vitamins, minerals, fatty and amino acids, etc. But for the three day trip, the danger of undereating is greater than the danger of, say, contracting scurvy. Especially if it might get cold. So I don't feel bad about doing without fresh juice and veggies, and don't worry about suppliments. But I do eat. One of my cold country nightime routines is to eat before bed -- normally a no no.

Also, we've got 3 big colleges locally so there is always plenty of sports and sports training news. One piece last summer was about the diets of football players. The nutritionist (and these schools spare no expense in the atheletic arena) said that the bigggest problem with the lads was getting them to get enough carbs. Seems they liked to fill up on steak and proteins. The nutritionist stated that the desired high-performance ratio was 60% carbohdrates, 20% proteins, and 20% fats (that is, percent of total calories consumed). I expected those big muscleheads to need more protein for growing muscle tissue, but not so. Come to think of it, bulls get pretty big without protein, but then we lack their guts. Anyway, thought it was interesting. Had fooled with the idea of creating a 2,000 calorie per day diet comprised of my favorite eats in the prescribed ratio, but that made my head hurt so I just grabbed some cookies and sat down w/ the TV ...

This has been an informative thread because it has illuminated some misconceptions that many folks carry with them.

Among the opinions that I have formed re: nutrition are the following.

Clearly, athletes (including us) need more calories, but in about the same proportions of Carb, Protien, fat, as non athletes.

Re: Diet proportions....there is no real answer other than the fact that a 10% fat content is very hard to achieve (read Nathan Pritken) Small variations of the 60/20/20 are all fine, they all work, and nobody will be injured with anything close to this percentage.

"Whole foods" are a pet subject for me, but I am fully aware that in the short term, it does not matter that much. (Still....I try for whole foods while backpacking when I can realistically use them)

Muscle fuel is provided by glycogen not by protein.

This may surprise some, but as Sean said, Carbohydrate (is) an important component of Protein absorption. (however, not for the reason we might think)

Explanation of last:

The body's first priority during exertion is to process glycogen in order to provide fuel for ongoing activity, (or) to replenish depleted energy stores. The body processes simple or complex Carbs to replace muscle glycogen that is depleted during exertion. If the Carb intake is insufficient (or, too short lived....as in simple sugars) to supply enough glycogen, then the body will process dietary protien to provide fuel (energy) ((this is very inefficient)) When this happens, the protein does not get fully broken down into the amino acids that are necessary for cell reconstruction.

Sean's thesis that he needs to consume Carb to facilitate protien absoption is correct. However, the carbs do not accelerate or facilitate the absorption of protien into the muscle. The carbs prevent the body from processing the protien for energy and allow the time consuming process of amino acid conversion to take place.

That's enough from me for now, but we should keep this thread alive as it is very beneficial to us all.

JimF

I would add that processing protein into glycogen is very messy as well. The process produces lots of tough to handle waste products and free radicals that, by themselves, do harm if not removed promptly.
Another I might note is nobody, not even pregnant women, or nursing moms, need much over 60 grams of protein per day. Many can get along with about 35 grams. Any extra protein is turned into fat and stored.
Another little interesting item is that we can't store more than 1200-1400 calories worth of glycogen. That's why snacking is such a good idea for us. I understand a snack every three hours and a meal every 6 hours seems to work best. I also understand there is nothing wrong with a snack before bed. If I am up beyond 3 hours after dinner, I snack. E

Thank you guys for excellent info. Will digest it later. I'm kind of dashing through repacking bags between trips. My trouble is being overweight. My major blimp up came during three years of serious illness, more than a year of that on on massive doses of weight inducing prednisone, plus wild metabolism gyrations due to thyroid ups and downs. Am having more trouble getting the weight off than I expected, mainly due to schedule and personal discipline in the face of said schedule. Need to be back on the beach skin diving daily ( with half mile swims out to the best reefs) or back on the ranch bucking bales rather than walking past Cinnabon shops in airports with time on my hands. Do you know that in Istanbul they have fabulous bakeries? That's complex carbos, right? You can sit at a table on the cobblestone street with a cup of superb coffee and a baked confection too complex to describe. At one of the upscale places it will set you back a mere 5 million or so, and that even feels good when you know it is under $3.00. Yes, discipline... Need a desert march with Eremicus, then on to winter camping in a snow cave at 10K elevation with JimF, and shock aversion treatment for bakeries.

Yeah i can see how thyroid fluctuations or low thyroid would make weight loss nearly impossible. Have you talked to your doctor about medications to boost or regulate your thyroid?

Yep, I'm on a thyroid suppressant now. Actually, one of my first noticeable symptoms was a rapid weight loss from hyperthyroid Graves Disease (too much thyroid production) causing high metabolism, rapid heart rate, and a dozen other symptoms including hair loss and loss of low light vision. I mention the symptoms as an alert to anyone else. They were clues no one noticed a full six months before my sudden onset of severe eye problems. The average GP doctor often misses thyroid symptoms in a man, and does not recognize rare severe Graves eye cases for what they are even when correctly diagnosed as Graves.

A quick memory count puts me on my 16th medical doctor from two countries plus a naturopath or two, etc., three major surgeries and some lesser ones, about 30 meds and another 67 lotions, potions, cures and healers recommended by well meaning friends. (I kept a list). I am so grateful to have my eyesight back that I get emotional about it. It was good enough to see and shoot a 4x5 elk in November.

I'm glad we still have you hunting too, OK. Your one of my favorite "go lite" experts. E

Wow, im glad you are back in the game. So it sounds like you pretty much have it under conrol now, thats great. I cant imagine the frustration to have to see than many doctors to get it taken care of. Congratulations on the Bull!

Thank you, gentlemen, my regard for you is mutual. I got a reprieve and don't have to leave till tomorrow.

The high count of docs is partly due to having my health insurance drop me part way through the illness, good old reliable Regency Blue Cross. So I became a medical refugee. The other reason for lots of docs (I left out guys like anesthetists or anesthesiologists) is due to going to a teaching research doctor who does a show and tell thing, especially with severe patients, teaching younger doctors who do all but the tough stuff and aid him in those procedures. When I got to the first level of specialists, the doc leaned back after examining me and said, "You are lucky. You have an interesting case." That's kind of a mixed luckiness, but he was right in that it got me into the top docs right away.

Hunt and enjoy life while you can. My last elk hunt before being struck nearly blind I remember stumbling in the dusk and needing a flashlight when others could easily see, of being super sensitive to cold (slept out on the trail of an elk one night without a sleeping bag anyway) and having all kinds of odd vision and sensory abberations that I attributed to sudden aging. My blindness did not come soon enough to spare a beautiful 5x6 bull however on that trip. His image in the snowy sunlit timber was a sustaining memory during my foggy groggy days. Also, take charge of your own case if you have a serious illness, or have somone who loves you and is close do it.