Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles AR 10(ish) rifle in 308

Ok, I have a question for all the 308 Gas Gun shooters reading this.

I just build myself an AR10ish rifle with a 13" long gas tube, 20" light weight barrel, and it's been superbly reliable so far. BUT...... I am having a hell of a time getting it to shoot a small group with the bullets I'd like to use.


To start, I need to say the rifle is accurate, but finicky. With Finish match loads (173 Gr) and also with a load of WW 748 (46.6 GR) and a Speer 150 grain, and well as a load of 49 of WW760 and 150 grain Remington Bronze Points the rifle will hold MOA or a bit less. My best is 7/8" but many go 1" to 1.1 inch. So the rifle can shoot well.

BUT I am looking for a bullet that I can trust to hold together and penetrate well, because I will likely use the new AR for an elk rifle and I can't get the old Bronze Points anymore. Besides that, I had some of them do erratic things in the years past that make me believe they may break up too much for an elk load. The Speer 150 is a wonderful deer bullet, but I have seen it give up a lot of weight fast on deer and the penetration is not all that deep. Some were found on the off side skin of mid size deer, and I want a bullet that will go deeper for elk hunting.

So.......... I tried some 165 grain and 180 grain bullets. LOT's of bad groups with Varget, 4895, 4064, and WW748 with them going between 4.5" and 7". Many times they string side to side, but also often shoot a large even triangle at 100 yards. But as I said above, with some bullets and powders the gun can shoot MOA and do it several times in a row. Just not with an elk bullet (yet).

So before I go on a long journey of trying all different kinds of powders, powder charges and bullets from 165 to 180 grain, I just thought I'd throw this post out, and see if anyone out there has seen something like this in their gas guns, and if so, what you may have done to solve it.

I can (and probably should) go to a Nosler Partition or Barnes X but the cost of them is high enough that I want to try other options first, because such finicky rifles sometimes go through a few hundred rounds before you hit on what they like. In the case of the Partitions, in the past I have often found a like weight flat base Speer or Hornady can shoot as accurate and to the same point of aim as a Partition in several guns I have owned and shot.


I can start with a long experiment, but I think it may be wise to simply ask others before I start. What say ye all?

If you are trying to find accurate loads, throw the speer away. At the very least, I'd be looking at Hornady interlocks (150gr. sp or 165gr sp) or Winchester powerpoints. I'm one that has never had good luck with speer bullets of any kind. Unless you can find an old box of the Speer grandslam's. Thats the only speer I'd trust. If you can get your hands on some 155gr lapua scenar's, I'd give that one a try as well. My AR10 shoots the 168gr Hornady match bullets very well, but I have never used them on deer or elk. I'd be a little worried they would fragment too much and not penetrate enough. Unless someone here has used them and confirm they will penetrate well enough, I'd shy away from them myself. Also, asking us will likely do no good, as you are going to have to "experiment" with your rifle. It's not the same rifle as mine, or anyone else's here... Like you said though, I'd start off with some Hornady interlocks and a little tid bit of information regarding the cost of partitions: They are not that expensive, IF you go to the right place and buy them. SPS. Hint...

I would get a box of Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr and see if the gun will shoot it. If it won't, then there is something odd about the barrel that should be fixed before proceeding with handloads.

I'd grab a $20 box of Hornady American Whitetail 165 Interlocks also. That bullet should be stout enough at .308 speeds. One could say much the same about 165 Federal Fusions. I sometimes tell folks that if a hunting rifle won't shoot acceptably with factory Interlocks or Fusions, it is likely just too dang picky of a rifle to be fooling with.

Mine wasn't finicky really so can't say much about that part of it. I started off with 150gr Win PP and a couple different powders. It shot well enough with Varget that I loaded some 150gr Nosler Partitions that I picked up a few years ago in a trade. They actually shot the same, so I put some in the gun and went hunting. I fired one at a deer and brought it home. DRT and pass through.
I'd try Hornady Interlocks and Win PP before any Speer or specialty bullets as well. My one exception is the Sierra 165gr HPBT as it shoots so well out of several rifles and is tougher than the soft point. I know the 165 Gameking gets a lot of trash talk but the HPBT version is a way better bullet.

Not really.

I've had mixed results with the Federal Gold Medal Match. Some guns like them and other's just don't. I've seen some really good shooting .308's thwo the GMM's all over the place.

Szihn,

Who's barrel did you use?

Also, sounds like you are shooting 3 shot groups, so unless you are getting good consecutive 3 shot groups, they are not telling you as much as you think they are.

As for loading, in my experience the best bullets to start with are the Nosler Ballistic tip and the Sierra Match King. Most of us here shoot seconds straight from Nosler here:

http://www.shootersproshop.com/loading-reloading-bullets/shopby/dir/asc/order/caliber/p/1.html

Unfortunately, the only .30 NBT's they have at the moment are 180gr. But if you want to try some heavier bullets, they would be a great place to start.

They have the 150gr Partitions in stock now.

Different rifles have different preference, so I like to start with a few different powder combinations. I'll run the old school ball powders, such as W748 with a match or magnum primer, and an old school stick or two like 4895 with a CCI 200.

Thanks for the input BSA1917.

But the Speer is one of the few that did shoot well in this rifle. I just don't trust it as an elk bullet because of the results I have seen in the past on deer.

I also like the Winchester Power Points in both 150 and 180 grain weights. I have killed elk with them in the past from my bolt action 308 and they were very good. They also shoot very well in my other 2 308s, but in this one (so far) they shoot poorly. I tried them with 3 powders and they would only hold into about 3". THAT was a real disappointment to me. And like you I don't like target bullets for hunting. Yes they sometimes do well, but the key word being "sometimes". All bullets can occasionally do weird things, but many of the do bad things quite often, so I just refuse to hunt with those that I know about.

Big Nate, I also have seen the same thing with Sierras over the last 50+ years of hunting. The Hollow Points hold together BETTER then the soft points. I have said so a few times and most folks don't believe me, but that's been my experience in 25 cal, 7MM, 270 and 30 cals. I can't say exactly why, but their HP hunting line (not match kings) do BETTER at holding together then their Game Kings or their Pro-Hunter line.

Antelope Sniper, I used a Green Mountain blank and made the barrel myself. Standard 1-10" twist. I use an over-length gas system on my AR10 style rifles and have had excellent results with them. I used to make my own hand guards and gas tubes too, but now you can buy them so that makes this all easier now then it was 20 years ago. The GM barrel shoots MOA now, just not with the bullets I want to use. I am going to try some 165s starting today,. I did try a few on Saturday, but I only had 32 left in a box (Hornady flat bases inner-locks) and I used them all up before I found a load that the rifle likes. I bought a box of 165 Hornady Boat tails (not my 1st choice, but it's what I could find on Sunday) and I'll see if I can get it to shoot these well.

I made 2 near identical rifles. One with a stainless barrel and one with the carbon steel barrel. Both Green Mountain blanks, both 20" and both with 13" gas systems. The other one (made for a 12 year old girl) shoots well with the 180s and the 165s, and one load with 748 and the 165 flat bases shot 5/8" in her rifle, 3 times in a row. Same load in my rifle shoots about 3" (crap!)

With the Finish load and with the Speer bullets and a load of 760 with the no-longer-available Bronze Point, my rifle shoot MOA and less. So I know the barrel is OK, but just seems to not like the heavier bullets I have tried so far.

I do have one box of 150 grain Nosler partitions, so I am going to try them too. I have killed elk, and seen a lot of elk killed with these bullets in the last 50+ years, so I know they work well, but it sure would be nice to have something less expensive to play with. Having a super accurate rifle with super accurate ammo is not as important as honing shooting skills. The equation is always weighted about 98% the shooter and 2% the gear, so I am a firm believer in LOTS of shooting for practice. Hence my reason for wanting a load with which I can afford to burn a few thousand rounds a year.

I do have a large can of Remington 150 grain Core Lokts which I can get 1.1 to 1.5 MOA from in several other rifles of mine, from 300 savage to 30-06 and one of my other 308s. The 150 Gr Remington and the 150 grain Partition can be made to shoot to about he same trajectory when driven at the same speeds, and that allows me to have a "premium load" and a practice load, but so far the new AR is not giving me good results with the Remington either. Not super bad, but not good enough .

If I can even get 1.5 MOA from my practice load I am happy to then get MOA or less from the Partitions and only use the Partitions for killing elk. I have good luck with the Remingtons on deer and antelope too, so I would not shy away from their use on game up to about 300 pounds, but I catch them in deer fairly often. I like exits on elk!!!! When bullet don't exit deer it's unlikely they are going to go deeper in an elk.

What I really hope I can make work is the 180 grain Hornady Flat base and the 180 grain Nosler Partition, so I can play the game that way, Hornadys for most shots and for elk, for the little extra margin of penetration, I'd use the Partitions. We'll have to see........

I know BSA 1917 is almost certainly correct. I am going to have to do all my own experimentation. I was just hoping maybe someone might have a tit-bit for me that would be a "step up".

But finicky rifles just seem to tax your patience at times. I have worked on more of them then I can count in my 1/2 century of being a gunsmith. But one thing I have learned in gunsmithing............always ask! Sometimes you get such a tid-bit form men who may not even be all that experienced. It just that some folks find some thing that works--- and if I can use the same step to climb the ladder I may as well.

My gas-gun shoots well, but not with the bullets I want it to shoot well with (yet).

As a pastor friend told me once.
A wise man will learn from the mistakes and successes of others -----------and need not always learn everything himself.
So that's the reason for the post.

What weights did they shoot well?

The 308 is not "finicky" unless the barrel is wonky. There's a reason that ammo is used for testing.

dla, As a rule the 308 is not finicky, but that is NOT universal. I have been doing gunsmithing for a living for most of the last 50 years and I have had a dozen or so 308s come through my shop that were indeed finicky. In fact I own a Mossberg MVP that shoots some loads into about 3/4" and others into 4". It's a bit finicky too. Thankfully it shoots bullets I like to use for hunting.

The new gas gun doesn't shoot the ones I want to use on elk (yet). It shoots MOA (or there-abouts) with some military FMJ match loads, and also with Remington Bronze Points, but with all others so far it's doing well to hold 2 MOA and some others are downright poor.

The 168's. Every caliber, every rifle can have it's peculiarities. And just because it doesn't like a few loads, that doesn't mean the barrel is "wonky".

You just need to get out and shoot more and broaden your base of experience.

Nope.
Assuming you've got the sighting system right and the chambering is good then the barrel is BAD. Replace it. Don't waste life trying to work around a bad barrel.

Nope.
Assuming you've got the sighting system right and the chambering is good then the barrel is BAD. Replace it. Don't waste life trying to work around a bad barrel.

Good barrels shoot good, bad barrels shoot wonky. Some rifles aren't worth the hassle of rebarreling, and some folks are fine with 2 moa. But if you want to race in Formula One it is silly to start with an oil-burning Toyota Corolla.

165 gr game king and Varget is king in my LR-10

That's rich. The campfire fool who repeatedly proves he knows nothing about anything is giving barrel advice to a 50-year gunsmith.

Keep it up dla, you're a genius.

I have a guess here. I might just try an expensive bullet just because it interests me. The Barnes 168 gr TTSX? I don't have your experience Mr Zin. But it looks like something I might try. I have no problem getting a minute of deer load out of factory Fed Blue box 150 gr SP. That's in my Steyr Scout, a Remington 600 P-Scout, and an R25, all in .308. I have some target stuff but don't drag it out for just any rifle. So for a heavier bullet I would try the Barnes and some other stuff closer to 200 gr. Let us know how it shakes out. Be Well, Rustyzipper.

I played with my LR 260 for years before I gave up and sent it off for repair. One thing that I was told was to try H4350 vs the IMR and AA 4350 that I had been using. I have some H 4350 loads waiting for the gun's return.
A bore cam revealed that the throat was missing from 5 o'clock to 11 o'clock. With only 300 rounds fired the inspector stated that it was a warranty issue. It is currently at Remington as they took over DPMS. Thus far they have been elusive about admitting guilt, but are repairing it. I stated in my letter that if it was not covered by warranty to return it as is and I would put a quality barrel on it. Hopefully I'll find out after the holidays.

Bottom line is : try H4350

Well I found a good load for elk in this rifle.

41 grains of 4064 and an old fashioned Hornady Inner-Lock Spire Point Flat base. WCC NATO brass and WW LR primer. Seated and crimped into the cannelure.

Shot at 107 yards (close to 100 Meters) with my AR10(ish) rifle I made for myself. It has a very light weight barrel made from a Green Mountain bank that I cut at 20". I did all the machine work, chambering and set the gas port out farther then standard. I use a 13" long gas tube to avoid the over-gas problem we see in many of the early AR10 style rifle. Scope is a Redfield Revenge 2X to 7X and I leave it set at 5X. I was tempted to zero at 7X but I decided to leave it at 5X because that is how I always leave in when actually hunting.

This rifle was quite finicky. It shot a danish imported match ammo well, coming in around 1 MOA, (1.035") and also a load of 49.1Grains of 760 with an old Remington Bronze Point at 1.110". But the Bronze Point is not a bullet I want to use for elk, and Remington isn't even making and selling them to the hand-loading market anymore. So it doesn't really matter if that bullet shot well of not.

I also good accuracy and a few groups of around 11/16" with Speer 150 grain flat base bullets and 47.6 Gr of WW748. The best one being .778", but past experience with this bullet has shown me a lack of exits and limited penetration on mid size and big deer, so if I can't expect it to exit a deer I am unwilling to use it on elk.

Other groups were averaging around 2" to 3" with some being horrid at over 4"

I wanted to see what I could get with a 165 or a 180- grain bullet, some of which I have seen good results on elk in the past from 308s and 30-06s. The rifle would shoot well, but not with bullets I wanted to trust on an elk hunt.

Well today I hit a good one. I am pleased. The old 180 grain Hornady Spire Point flat base on 41 grains of 4064. I have not chronographed it yet because of very dark skies and low light, but I will soon. I expect it will go over 2450 FPS and I know that is fine for elk. At those speeds the bullets are not moving fast enough to break them completely apart. This muzzle velocity usually gives hit at between 1900 to 2400 FPS on the elk and in my experience with this bullet in the past from other 308s and a lot of 30-06s it works well. The only times I have seen bad break-ups with this bullet in the past were from shots at 150 yards and less, from various 300 magnums. So as of now, I am a happy camper. I will keep trying to get it to also shoot a good 165 too, so I can add a bit of speed to flatten out the trajectory a bit more, but if it seems to do best with this load and doesn't like any of my tries with a good 165 I am happy to "marry" the rifle to this 180 grain bullet too.

Here is a pic of what I just did last hour.
OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA by .com/photos/156296479N08/]Steve Zihn, on [bleep]

The 1st picture is of the whole paper. Once on paper I tried the 180 grain load above at the upper left square. As you can see, it's quite good enough for hunting with this rifle. 3 shots into .778".

I "crotch the square" with the cross hairs to try to "hold small". In other words I try to put the crotch of the cross on the lower right corner to work up loads. The first 3 round were good enough for group size, but shot low and to the right. So I then shot at the lower right square. As you can see the 1st shot hit about the same place as the shot before, low and to the right. I brought the scope up and fired #2. I then clicked up 4 more and fired #3. My last shot was held to center over the square, and it hit nearly center and 2" high, which is exactly where I'd want it to hit, so I call that zeroed and ready for the field.

The 2nd picture is the the 1st group next to a penny.
308 Elk load at 100 meters by .com/photos/156296479N08/]Steve Zihn, on [bleep]


I will continue to work with loads using 165 grain bullets. I hope I can find one with a tough bullet hat shoots as well (maybe better) then is one, but if not I'd be happy with what I have now.

Just as a side note: Varget didn't give me good accuracy so far. 42.2 of Varget shot 2.880" at best and 4.012" at worst. Not that it won't ever shoot well with Varget, (many 308s will) but not yet with the bullets and charge weights I have tried thus far.

My best so far is with the Speer 150s and this is my 2nd best .......... but 2nd best is with a much better bullet for the use of this rifle. 2nd best is only 91 thousandths larger, so only about 1/3 of the bullet width. I'll accept that for hunting elk, no problem.

That 180 is shooting well. I would use it on elk. At those velocities, that bullet will perform just fine. Now, you could go to SPS and see if they have any 180gr partitions on sale. I'd look at the blemished and seconds or overruns myself. That rifle would probably shoot the partitions just fine....