Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Neck Sizing Question

> i don`t want to upset anyone ,i have never seen Lee dies used at a bench rest match and the best shooters that win don`t neck size either anymore and neither do I. yes i do use some Lee dies for certain hunting rifles but never for competition, Lee reloading manufacture makes great reloading equipment for the average handloaders for their hunting rifles. another thing better brass shoots better groups too once you understand some basic methods to prepare that brass and the best brass made is Lapua brass no one makes brass this well or consistent either.

I agree that Lee equipment is generally not as good as most of the others, but they offer a few unique items (like the collet neck die) that are excellent in function. If Redding or Forster offered a similar product, I am confident it would be better made and of superior materials and I'd be all over it.

I don't compete, but if I did I'm pretty sure I'd be using high-dollar stuff...but I just hunt a little and love to play at the loading bench to see what I can do with my hunting rifles.

I guess it just all depends on approach, purposes, and objectives.

I'm not a gunwriter, but have been reloading for 50 yrs. IMO and IME, it's not about neck sizing vs. FL sizing, it's about run out, concentricity. I use a Sinclair run out gauge to measure and a TruTool http://www.trutool-equipment.com to tweak all my rounds. Seating dies aren't all the same, no matter how well the case is sized. You don't know until you check concentricity. Seating dies, bullet ogive, seater fit, etc. another discussion.

Loading the straightest ammo you can is the way to go. Often a FL die oversizes the neck and as the expander is pulled thru the neck, the case can end up silghtly crooked, the thinner side of the case with more stretch than the thicker side. It take a really good case to have the same exact thickness all the way around.

The Lee Neck collet neck sizer is a unique design, imparting no stretch on the case. The problem with neck sizing, the round can get harder to chamber as the case stretches. And they gonna stretch,. Throw away the Lee Collet die set up instructions, use Mathman's instructions and don't look back. I think that info is on the link above.

Redding makes a great body die, but not cheap. The cheapest and best way to go, IMO, is getting a Deluxe Lee die set with the collet neck sizer and FL sizer. Their FL die makes a great body die with some Dremel work. I've had to use worn grinding tips to fit inside a .22 cal die neck. That steel is really hard and takes some work to cut enough so that the case neck doesn't touch. The decapper makes a nice punch with retaining nut removed. I guess one could say the Lee Deluxe die set is a MacGyver starter kit...

I mounted my TruTool on a a small board. To me a perminant bench mount gets in the way. I can put this set up on a shelf when not being used.

DF

Forgot to add, I used a T Nut to attach the TruTool to the board. Ace Hdw, etc has them or you can order one on line. Just measure the TruTool hole size to get the right one.

DF


Edited to add, I'm not a benchrest shooter, just a hunter who likes to shoot accurate ammo in accurate rifles.

I'm sure those guys can justify the expensive equipment they use, I can't and don't.

The quality of ammo I can load with the Lee set up exceeds my shooting ability. I want to be the limiting factor, not the ammo.

There's something that's often neglected in these conversations when comparisons start to be made between Lee collet dies and the Redding and other bushing dies. How much are you moving the brass when it's being sized? Concentricity wise things often go bad fast with bushing dies when the brass needs sizing more than a few thousandths.

I have a bit of experience along these lines when it comes to loading for the 308 Winchester. Fired brass coming out of a typical factory chamber with have a neck OD on the order of .344" more or less. If the brass happens to be Winchester it will likely need to be sized to .330", or even .329", to hold a bullet with two thousandths interference fit. It's close to a "the sun will rise in the east" lock that a properly adjusted Lee collet die will produce straighter brass than a Redding bushing die. This is true whether you try to bushing size it in one step or several.

Now suppose I'm loading Lapua brass for a .340" neck chamber in a 308 Winchester match rifle. Here the brass will only need moving a few thousandths and it's a different ball game.

The OP is loading "mundane" brass for what I believe are factory sporter rifles. The fact that in the right circumstances for a BR match there may be an advantage to "fancy" bushing dies isn't that big of a deal here.

I full length size because I have multiples in many cartridges. I have five 7 mags. There is no way I’m keeping separate loads for each rifle. I have four 06’s, four 308’s, on and on, I’d go crazy.

Do you all that have multiples of the same caliber, load for each rifle?

Agree.

That's why I don't have multiples in one round. It's just like having that many separate chamberings. So, in my safe, they're all separate rounds. Expect for 7RM. I have the Brux MkV, 8 twist 7RM and the Champlin and Haskins 7RM built by Len Brownell. They're almost like two different rounds. The C&H loves 140's, the Brux does great with the heavies. And, I don't shoot the C&H that much.

DF

It really depends upon how hot your loads are. Mild loads may go 3-5 shots. Hot loads might not make it 2. My best advice is after firing, try to chamber the case again. If it's tight, then FL size it. Don't wait until you have loaded 50 rounds and go to the range to find out that they're too long.

That's what the body die if for. You never need to FL, IMO, just set the shoulder back enough for easy chambering. Size the case a little at a time until the bolt closes on the empty case without much resistance. For hunting rounds, I want real easy closure. For general shooting or shooting groups, mild resistance is OK, at least for me.

DF

Not picking on you specifically, but as I said in the thread to which I linked earlier in this one, they'll always come out of the chamber small enough to go right back in again. The only exception will be if the case (or chamber) is out of round, which is a whole 'nother problem. Absent that particular case, the only way they end up needing the shoulder "bumped back" is if you've done something in the reloading process to drag it forward. Pulling an expander through the neck, for example, or squeezing the case body with a FL die while the shoulder is unsupported.

Personally I don't ever find it necessary to bump shoulders back. With regular anneals to case necks I have cases which have been reloaded literally dozens of times without ever having shoulders bumped back.

I do agree though, that it is a good idea to check the finished rounds for easy chambering before a comp or a hunt.

Amen.....couldn't agree more.

That's why I didn't hesitate to convert the Lee FL die to a body die. I don't need their FL die, which IMO, isn't the best FL die anyway. It does make a very nice body die, however, and on the cheap using the Dremel. With this set up there is never a need to FL size a case, only set it back when bolt closure gets a bit tight.

I don't anneal as much as I probably should. If I did, as mentioned by someone earlier, I may not need to set back shoulders that often. I can go several loadings without worrying about it, unless I'm pushing a load. Then, I'll set back shoulders more often.

DF

I'm going to have to check that on some fired and sized cases then. I neck turn my cases and polish the expander ball as to do a minimal amount of stress to them, but if it's moving the shoulder back forward I may have to change my process. It currently doesn't take much pressure to pull the expander back through, but without checking it I can't be sure that it isn't doing what you're saying it is.

It’s easier than you think. I load for 2 7mm Rem Mags, 4 7mm-08, 5 .223, and a bunch of .30-06. Every rifle has its own box or 2.




P

I have six 270W's. I treat each one as a individual, and have separate sizing dies for each one. Over the years it seems I've accumulated enough dies to find at least one that will size concentrically. Two of the 270's are custom bbls, one has a bbl that has been set back a thread and rechambered with a shortish throat. Although those three I can PFLR with expanders that I have polished down for the amount of tension I want and minimal working of the brass, plus get runout under .003. Although on one I've gone to the LCD because it also produces low runout and is quicker to size brass with. The whole idea of handloading is to custom tune the ammo to the rifle. Each rifle is an individual.

For three 243's the brass I'm currently using a Redding Nk die produces the least runout--even better than the LCD. But I did have one lot of brass that the LCD did better.

Regardless of rifle, chambering, or brass, when rounds become hard to chamber it's also time to anneal and bump the shoulder back. Currently I get lowest concentricty with either Redding FL, or Nk dies in conjunction with Redding body dies, or LCD, and Forster seaters. Although I use a Redding seater for my 243AI.

As an added note to this thread, All five of my LCD's would not produce enough neck tension to securely hold a bullet with the standard mandrel. I've had to go to the undersize mandrel and with three of them sand down a mandrel to get the tension I wanted. So my experience has been LCD's are not ready to go out of the box.

I have more rifles in .223 / 5.56 than anything else.

The night before last, I was doing a little load development work for the ones I equip for night hunting. Since I have several rifles chambered in .223, I have numerous sizing dies...one is FL, some are body dies, one is conventional FL, and I have my Lee Collet neck die...all wrapped up in a Forster die box. They are very roomy. So I reach up on the shelf to put away a 5.56 die I had been using and the box slips out of my hand. The box lands on the bench and stuff bounces everywhere.

"Dammit. $#^#&$#*!&$!!!"

I put everything away...or at least I THINK I put everything away.

I come home after work the next afternoon and decide I need to refill my humongous mug with water. I pour it into the kitchen sink to clean it out, and I hear tink tink clank tink. I see a dummy .223 case in the sink and I retrieve it. This is one I use for checking distance to the lands for seating purposes. But I am certain one of the "tink" noises is something else, and now whatever it is can be found in the trap of my kitchen sink.

No problem, thinks I. I'll just use a cheap USB cam I'd bought several years ago to see if there's actually something in my kitchen sink drain. Unfortunately, I couldn't get the head of that little bastard through the drain guard or whatever the hell you wanna call it. My solution is to use my Teslong borecam to see what lurks in the trap of my kitchen sink drain. Nice to have tools.

So then I discover that I do not have an adapter to connect the Teslong to my phone...no! It CANNOT be that easy.

Being unstoppable, I grab my laptop to connect to the Teslong because I'll be damned if I'm going to let whatever it was that went down the drain end up in the septic system because I know there's not a chance in hell it won't end up in the sprinkler pump and destroy it.

Old laptop had not been turned on in a year and a half, I guess...maybe longer. Don't recall. All I know is the SOB won't boot. After screwing around with various charging Power Supplies (I have three for that computer), I discover I am pushing the wrong button to try and make it boot up. On ly fifteen minutes wasted there, so no big deal.

The bastard finally boots up. I connect my borecam to it, and nothing happens. WTF now?? I start screwing around with the camera app, and I can't get that to work either. After another ten minutes I realize that the laptop's camera lens is covered with a cool little device that keeps your laptop from spying on you.

The borecam still won't work.

So now I am off the Teslong's website, looking for a driver or whatever I might need to look down that stinkinass drain. But I've got no WIFI connection. I fork around with that for a while until my wife hears me ripping cabinets off the wall and throwing them out the kitchen window (figuratively). She walks in and asks me if I'd remembered the little external swith in the laptop that turns the WIFI on and off. Well, heel no, of course I didn't tremember that.

Now I'm on my way because I can download the executable I need to make the Teslong work. Halle-freekin-lujah, I finally got it and I fire up the Teslong and poke it down the drain. Can't see schidt, the trap is full of water.

So now I'm on my back removing the trap under my kitchen sink, aand without breaking all the plumbing underneath te kitchen sink I manage to get the trap off. I empty it onto a paper towel, What did I recover? A freekin spare RCBS expander button. That's it. All that hassle over a two dollar part. Had I been aware I would have chanced the septic sprinkler pump.

Since I cannot possibly remember all the odds and ends in my die boxes, I guess maybe it's time to pare down my .223 rifles. But, nah. THAT ain't gonna happen.

Okay...so maybe I should just simplify and FL size everything...crazy talk, right there.

Maybe just being conscientious and avoiding clutz-hood would go a long way.

Merry Christmas!