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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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In the OT, satan is fully under the control of god, the book of Job, etc.
True. satan can do nor more or less than his master has planned and permits. if its not in Gods plan it aint possible! Its Jesus not the devil, that is superintedant of hell,; (Rev. 1:18), “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.” Lucifer did not cast himself down to earth or even request it , God spared him and bestowed on him a lesser dominion. - Evil exists with the will of God. God purposely created and appointed an archangel to betray him, he also purposely created all the other angels which rebelled in support of lucifer. God also created a world with diposable pawns just so fallen lucifer would still have an out-post job with the "firm"...  fallen Lucifer was still permitted in heaven, while christians can only hope of seeing such.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Tracker
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Once again, it takes no faith, only observation to gain knowledge.
I know the sky is blue, I can observe that.
I know that alcohol and tobacco damage the body, I can observe that.
I believe that cessation of brain activity equates to death of the soul. I can not observe that, but have faith it is true. Like when men decided the world was flat.
Ideas are far more powerful than guns, We dont let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas. "Joseph Stalin"
He who has braved youths dizzy heat dreads not the frost of age.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Once again, it takes no faith, only observation to gain knowledge.
I know the sky is blue, I can observe that.
I know that alcohol and tobacco damage the body, I can observe that.
I believe that cessation of brain activity equates to death of the soul. I can not observe that, but have faith it is true. Like when men decided the world was flat. A false and hasty conclusion based on an inadequate understanding of the world on a larger scale than they could grasp at the time, which is faith.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
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Once again, it takes no faith, only observation to gain knowledge.
I know the sky is blue, I can observe that.
I know that alcohol and tobacco damage the body, I can observe that.
I believe that cessation of brain activity equates to death of the soul. I can not observe that, but have faith it is true. Like when men decided the world was flat. No, much more like when men observed the world was not flat. Remember what happened to the first men to claim the earth was not flat, nor that the earth was the center of the universe. And who caused it to happen and called those statements heresy.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 96,049 Likes: 19 |
They first observed the world was flat. You would have thought presbyopia was from too much sex.
Last edited by jaguartx; 01/16/20.
Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
I Dindo Nuffin
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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When life looks hopeless, who gits out a Playboy magazine?
These premises insured by a Sheltie in Training ,--- and Cooey.o
"May the Good Lord take a likin' to you"
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Scripture describes earth as a mere circle, the God who made it and dictated the Bible
didnt realize through simple observation or other 'all knowing' means, that it is spherical.
Copernicus also put the cat amongst the pigeons by introducing his theory of Heliocentrism.
yet Catholic Fathers of the Church were in unanimous consent in regard to geocentrism
as a matter of... faith.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Tracker
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You are a critic of the idea of obtaining knowledge through faith. That fact has been demonstrated on this site beyond any doubt (in numerous posts by you and conversations in which you've participated) . Yet you exempt yourself from the strictures of your own criticism because materialism (which you adhere to with near religious devotion) holds that the metaphysical freedom of the mind (the idea that the mind is actually free to apprehend truth) is an impossibility. In which case, truth is an impossibility and in which further case, it is nonsense to even employ language for any purpose. (This is the quintessence of nihilism). The only way to escape this conundrum is to deny the truth of materialism (which you refuse to do) while incessantly talking as if truth is a genuine possibility and while simultaneously while slavishly following a philosophy that denies that there is any such thing as truth. You are therefore very much like that Cretin who said that all Cretins are liars.
I too am a critic of knowledge gained through faith. Belief may be gained through faith. Belief is not knowledge. Many have faith and believe things which are demonstrably false. Many have faith and believe things which are contrary to the knowledge and beliefs of others. Knowledge tells us only that one or both must be wrong. Knowledge is gained through observation and interpretation of those observations. Can you prove that you are the person who writes checks in your name? The very idea (the assumption) that you are you is an idea held on the basis of "faith". It cannot, in the final analysis, be empirically demonstrated. Likewise, the belief in the metaphysical freedom of the mind a belief (upon which all "knowledge" ultimately depends) is a belief held on the basis of faith. That's not how it works. Though it is a fine example of equivocation. There is nothing equivocal in the absolute necessity of faith as the beginning of all genuine knowledge. You yourself are dependent on and exercise "faith" every time you "think". The difference between you and the theists is they are at least intellectually honest about it. No, it is equivocation...our experience of the world and self begins with information acquired from the external world by our senses and brain....which is in turn being tested against the external world as we navigate our way through it. The tree or the wall is there to bar your path regardless of what you believe. If your senses are reliable, you negotiate your way through an environment that does not care about belief or faith. Except modern philosophy teaches us that genuine knowledge of the external world is impossible to have. You are an adherent of that philosophy but you patronize theism (in your claim to have genuine knowledge of the external world) without even knowing you are doing it! This is why you are like the Cretin who said that all Cretins are liars!
Tarquin
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Sure it does, never heard of a hung jury?
LOL...Cite case law where a jury was hung when they couldnt decide if 'God forced' a murderers hand. Starman's legal lesson for the day: Why the jury reaches a verdict (or hangs) is not recorded. The court may inquire or a juror may speak but the only thing that matters is yea, nay, or punt. While "God told me" may be laughably considered as a moral defense show me where it constitutes a legal defense. Hint: Anyone with an IQ of a grape knows it doesn't.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Scripture describes earth as a mere circle, the God who made it and dictated the Bible
didnt realize through simple observation or other 'all knowing' means, that it is spherical.
Copernicus also put the cat amongst the pigeons by introducing his theory of Heliocentrism.
yet Catholic Fathers of the Church were in unanimous consent in regard to geocentrism
as a matter of... faith. Argument of a very disingenuous person. In other words a troll.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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You are a critic of the idea of obtaining knowledge through faith. That fact has been demonstrated on this site beyond any doubt (in numerous posts by you and conversations in which you've participated) . Yet you exempt yourself from the strictures of your own criticism because materialism (which you adhere to with near religious devotion) holds that the metaphysical freedom of the mind (the idea that the mind is actually free to apprehend truth) is an impossibility. In which case, truth is an impossibility and in which further case, it is nonsense to even employ language for any purpose. (This is the quintessence of nihilism). The only way to escape this conundrum is to deny the truth of materialism (which you refuse to do) while incessantly talking as if truth is a genuine possibility and while simultaneously while slavishly following a philosophy that denies that there is any such thing as truth. You are therefore very much like that Cretin who said that all Cretins are liars.
I too am a critic of knowledge gained through faith. Belief may be gained through faith. Belief is not knowledge. Many have faith and believe things which are demonstrably false. Many have faith and believe things which are contrary to the knowledge and beliefs of others. Knowledge tells us only that one or both must be wrong. Knowledge is gained through observation and interpretation of those observations. Can you prove that you are the person who writes checks in your name? The very idea (the assumption) that you are you is an idea held on the basis of "faith". It cannot, in the final analysis, be empirically demonstrated. Likewise, the belief in the metaphysical freedom of the mind a belief (upon which all "knowledge" ultimately depends) is a belief held on the basis of faith. That's not how it works. Though it is a fine example of equivocation. There is nothing equivocal in the absolute necessity of faith as the beginning of all genuine knowledge. You yourself are dependent on and exercise "faith" every time you "think". The difference between you and the theists is they are at least intellectually honest about it. No, it is equivocation...our experience of the world and self begins with information acquired from the external world by our senses and brain....which is in turn being tested against the external world as we navigate our way through it. The tree or the wall is there to bar your path regardless of what you believe. If your senses are reliable, you negotiate your way through an environment that does not care about belief or faith. Except modern philosophy teaches us that genuine knowledge of the external world is impossible to have. You are an adherent of that philosophy but you patronize theism (in your claim to have genuine knowledge of the external world) without even knowing you are doing it! This is why you are like the Cretin who said that all Cretins are liars! Without the knowledge of the world you have acquired from the moment of birth you would not last long, death by drowning while trying to walk on water, perhaps killed by traffic because road rules also cannot be known...maybe burnt because it's impossible to understand the properties of fire, etc, etc. Philosophy without science is an empty shell, how many Angels can dance on a needle point?
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Scripture describes earth as a mere circle, the God who made it and dictated the Bible
didnt realize through simple observation or other 'all knowing' means, that it is spherical.
Copernicus also put the cat amongst the pigeons by introducing his theory of Heliocentrism.
yet Catholic Fathers of the Church were in unanimous consent in regard to geocentrism
as a matter of... faith. Argument of a very disingenuous person. In other words a troll. That's a value judgment, not a refutation of what was said.
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Can you prove that you are the person who writes checks in your name? The very idea (the assumption) that you are you is an idea held on the basis of "faith". It cannot, in the final analysis, be empirically demonstrated. Likewise, the belief in the metaphysical freedom of
Except modern philosophy teaches us that genuine knowledge of the external world is impossible to have. You are an adherent of that philosophy but you patronize theism (in your claim to have genuine knowledge of the external world) without even knowing you are doing it! This is why you are like the Cretin who said that all Cretins are liars!
Man, that is some new age hippy BS! It is time to toss those Philosophy texts and buy some Physics texts. We already addressed the concept of empirical evidence. Any high school graduate who mastered his Biology, Chemistry, and Physics courses knows how to observe his surroundings.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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What made high school graduates? Oh yeah. An explosion of gases of elements. What made elements and gasses? Oh yeah. They just were. Oh yeah. Then there was just the heavens and earth. Well, we cant prove He didnt do it, but since we cant prove He did, then we know He didnt.  Now doesnt that just make perfect scientific sense?
Last edited by jaguartx; 01/16/20.
Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
I Dindo Nuffin
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Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 6,062 Likes: 3
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2019
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Can you prove that you are the person who writes checks in your name? The very idea (the assumption) that you are you is an idea held on the basis of "faith". It cannot, in the final analysis, be empirically demonstrated. Likewise, the belief in the metaphysical freedom of
Except modern philosophy teaches us that genuine knowledge of the external world is impossible to have. You are an adherent of that philosophy but you patronize theism (in your claim to have genuine knowledge of the external world) without even knowing you are doing it! This is why you are like the Cretin who said that all Cretins are liars!
Man, that is some new age hippy BS! It is time to toss those Philosophy texts and buy some Physics texts. We already addressed the concept of empirical evidence. Any high school graduate who mastered his Biology, Chemistry, and Physics courses knows how to observe his surroundings. No, that is classic enlightenment philosophy of which you are apparently entirely ignorant.
Last edited by Tarquin; 01/16/20.
Tarquin
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Man, that is some new age hippy BS!
It is time to toss those Philosophy texts and buy some Physics texts.
We already addressed the concept of empirical evidence. Any high school graduate who mastered his Biology, Chemistry, and Physics courses knows how to observe his surroundings.
No, that is classic enlightenment philosophy of which you are apparently entirely ignorant. If that is enlightenment, I am grateful to live in the dark. I would rather take my cues from Salk, Pasteur, Einstein, Hawking, Fermi, Plank and Avogadro.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
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Can you prove that you are the person who writes checks in your name? The very idea (the assumption) that you are you is an idea held on the basis of "faith". It cannot, in the final analysis, be empirically demonstrated. Likewise, the belief in the metaphysical freedom of
Except modern philosophy teaches us that genuine knowledge of the external world is impossible to have. You are an adherent of that philosophy but you patronize theism (in your claim to have genuine knowledge of the external world) without even knowing you are doing it! This is why you are like the Cretin who said that all Cretins are liars!
Man, that is some new age hippy BS! It is time to toss those Philosophy texts and buy some Physics texts. We already addressed the concept of empirical evidence. Any high school graduate who mastered his Biology, Chemistry, and Physics courses knows how to observe his surroundings. No, that is classic enlightenment philosophy of which you are apparently entirely ignorant. That's merely a claim. You need to support it by showing how philosophy alone gives us greater understanding of the natural world. No telescopes, microscopes, colliders, calculus, etc, etc....just pure philosophy.
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Campfire Tracker
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Let's see what a world renown philosopher has to say on the subject, for all practical purposes, exactly what I said earlier:
Hume warned against reasoning too far removed from the real world: if we reason a priori, anything may appear to produce anything. The falling of a pebble may, for aught we know, extinguish the sun; or the wish of man control the planets in their orbits.
It is only experience, which teaches us the nature of cause and effect, and enables us to infer the existence of one object from that of another.'' David Hume.
''I shall say that I know with certainty that he is not to put his hand into the fire and hold it there till it be consumed: And this event, I think I can foretell with the same assurance, as that, if he throw himself out at the window, and meet with no obstruction, he will not remain a moment suspended in the air.'' (David Hume, 1737)
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 26,069 Likes: 15 |
Yep, a bunch of self aggrandizing old fugs sitting around smoking stogies and sippin' bourbon. Just thinking about thinking and congratulating each other on their latest pronouncements.
And none of them ever contributing one wit toward the betterment of humanity.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
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[That's a value judgment, not a refutation of what was said. Either he's disingenuous or dumb as a box of rocks if he's truly propounding that "argument." An intelligent 5th grader should be able to blow that one away.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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