Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Ruger SP101 vs S&W M60

Thanks guys.

FreeMe,

That's sorta along the lines I was thinking. Practice with the 38specials but loaded w/ .357mag for self-defense.


Or if this is an option, practice w/ .38specials and load .38special +P's for self-defense.

Don't know if those two are options. Concerned whether they'll shoot the differents close enough to each other. Is this concern warranted?

Leo - it is possible to tailor a "soft" load to print to where a hotter load hits. A little experimentation with factory loads might give similar results. In my experience lighter bullets with slower velocities can print close to heavier bullets with higher velocities. It's not written in stone or anything - but you can make it work.

At 15yds or less, you won't see much difference in loads anyway...

You will probably see someone here who insists that you should always practice with the load you carry. IMO, that's bunk. It is good to shoot your carry load enough to make sure it works in your gun and that it won't distract you in your shooting. But practicing good shooting with any load is always beneficial. Since it's easier to shoot well with softer loads, your practice will be good practice.

BTW - even if your practice load doesn't print where your carry load does, it's still not really a problem. If you have a good carry load sighted in and your practice load hits 2" high - just aim and shoot normally (don't change your sight picture or your aiming point) and take the high groupings into account. If you're shooting reactive targets, just make sure they're big enough to get hits that are within the margin of error between your loads.

How much of a performance difference is there between a .357mag being shot from a 3" barrel vs 4" barrel? What about muzzle flash between the two barrel lengths? Noise difference, if any? Thanks,

Leo

In a 2" gun I would say the heavier the better in load choice only because expansion may be questionable, but through and through penetration seems to have it's own merit. I think it has been shown repeatedly that tiny 9mm's like the Kahr PM outperform the 357 snub in the light bullet, high speed genre.

TM

TM45,

I've read an article in regards to a snubie .38special even shooting +P, that you would be better off shooting a .380auto. So your comparison of a snubbie .357mag vs small 9mm seems logical.

I have seen the articles in gun mags that claim all these things - "mini 9mm outperforms .357 from snub, better off with .380, might as well shoot heavy semi-wadcutters, etc..."

I used to believe them, until I got my own chronograph and checked it for myself. Most of this is pretty much bunk. Although you will get a more muzzle blast and flash from the shorter barrel, the velocity loss does not render your snubbie useless.

I have tested identical loads in my 3" model 60 and my 4" Security Six. Lighter loads that I've tested show about 60fps difference. Heavier loads show about 150fps difference. (Thus, showing that you may lose more performance by going with a heavier load)

My K9 clocks the 9mm 115gr Gold Dot at about 1172fps, while my 3" 60as gives about 1231fps with .357 125gr Gold dot. I haven't been able to find 124gr +p Gold Dot in 9mm, but I seriously doubt that it would outperform the .357 significantly (if at all) from any compact pistol, given that online data (@ Firearms Tactical) shows 1155fps with that load from a 3.5" Firestar.

As far as .380 is concerned....After some reality-check with .380 loads, I sold my .380. I don't consider 950fps with an 85gr slug out of a pocket-size .380 to be anywhere near comparison with any +p load from a .38 snubbie - much less a .357 snubbie.

BTW, Leo -


There will likely be a bit more muzzle-flash from the shorter barrel. As far as the noise difference...I don't know, because I alway use hearing protection. Without hearing protection, any .357 load from either size barrel will be dangerously loud. But then - so will any load that's worthy of relying on for defense (from and unsupressed gun).

BTW - my 3" 60as gives about 1225fps with the 145gr Silvertip .357 load. Try to match that with a mini 9mm!

FreeMe,

Thanks for the reply. Very interesting!

Hey, I've been more researching on the web. I see that S&W makes a model 65LS (ladysmith) revolver that a 3" barrel 6-shot that weighs about 32 oz. That sounds about perfect (dispite the fixed sights)! Are they still around???

Leo

Before you give up on semi-autos for your wife, have you had her try the new S&W M&P 9mm? We had a lot of women in the store say they couldn't retract the slide on a semi-auto, but virtually all of them that said this could cycle the M&P 9mm. (NOT the 40, that's a different story.) Before you give up, have her try one. They also have a compact model now too. I sold a standard M&P 9mm to a very tiny woman (5' 11", probably well under 100 lbs.) in her sixties and she had no trouble with the slide -- it was actually one of the points that sold it. (use the proper technique) She took it to our range and reported back that it shot great. Unlike the snubbies, it shoots 17+1, has negligible recoil, and has wound ballistics with proper ammunition (as in Speer Gold Dot 147 or 124 gr. +P) exceeding the very best factory 357's.

I'm an instructor and snubbies are always recommended for ladies by either their SO's or gun stores, but I find very few who become proficient with them. A recent student had a Taurus airweight snubbie and after much instruction (and she had improved, but not as much as I thought she was capable of), I handed her my wife's Springfield XD Subcompact 9mm. Now she just spent hours with the snubbie and is apprehensive of the semiauto, since her hubby told her it was inherently unsafe (!). Her first five shot group is less than half the size of her best group using Winchester 148 gr. wadcutters in the 38. Now she wants to trade the snubbie for a 9mm and is deciding between a Springfield XD or a Smith M&P in 9mm. (She shot my Government Model 45 the best! She halved the 9mm groups with it and did fantastic on the steel plates. She had never shot any of these pistols prior to the class.)

I carry a Smith 642 with CT 405 laser grips as a backup to a 1911. I work extensively with it weak handed. However, as soon as I pick up the XD 9, the Springfield EMP 9 or my Government Model 45, and shoot them weak handed, my scores jump incredibly. 2" snubbies (excepting the heavy SP-101) are more for experts, since they are more akin to pointing your thumb at something than your index finger. Add a heavy 8-10 lb trigger to a 15 oz. handgun with particularly poor sights and you can't expect the results you get with even the SP-101 (which has great sights and good weight).

Just something to consider.

rly45acp,

Thank you for the response. I did not consider the S&W M&P 9mm. I will have to check them out. We weren't looking at those lightweigt snubbies revolvers. The two revolvers we were looking at were the S&W M60 and Ruger SP101 both w/ 3" barrels. The weigh 24oz and 27oz respectively. They're not those airlights by any means, but by the same token the wife doesn't like the heavier guns, ie those close to the 40oz mark. My internet research turned up the S&W 65LS that's a 3" barrel, 6-shot that weighs about 32oz. That might be the pefect compromise for us. I don't see it list on the company's website, so we have to see how easy that particular model is to find used.

leomort,

I just wonder if she is having trouble racking a slide that she will also have trouble with the trigger pull on the 65LS. Definitely take a look at the S&W M&P's. They have three sets of grips with each pistol. Make sure the clerk changes them out for your wife while she's there so she can find the grip that fits her best. Don't have her "slingshot" the slide to rack it, but have her put both hands in front of her and grab the frame in her strong hand and the slide serrations with her weak hand (use all of the fingers on the weak hand too, with thumb on one side, four fingers on other). The pistol should be parallel to/and her hands close to her body. This will allow her to get maximum strength from her grip and arms. Then, with the magazine in the pistol, have her quickly (like a burst motion) push her hands toward each other and see if she can lock the slide back.

I really think in actual shooting of the pistol, she will find the M&P far easier to master than any of the aforementioned revolvers. It's also fairly "light" at 24 oz. for the full size and 21.7 for the compact (without mags). This is well within your weight requirements. Also, the full size will probably be easier for her to lock the slide back, due to the changes necessary to make the compact (heavier recoil spring). Have her try both just to be sure. In the long run, I really think she will be happier with the semi-auto. If nothing else, the M&P 9's have frames that are designed to go well over 100,000 rounds -- no defense revolver I know of has that kind of life. Additionally, the trigger pull literally breaks in as you shoot it and it's not uncommon to get a nice 5 lb. trigger after a few hundred rounds. The price will be very competitive to the revolvers, especially when you take into consideration the significant increse in the shots available. The M&P full size comes with two 17 round magazines, and the Compact comes with two 12 rounders. The full size is a real pussycat to shoot -- very little recoil, almost no muzzle flip. Even with +P 124's, it will be significantly less recoil than the Speer Gold Dot 135's in a 3" 60 Smith and there will be NO (!) comparison to shooting 357's in either revolver.

The M&P is also a delight to take down. No pulling the trigger, ala Glock or XD. Very easy, very safe. Great design.

My wife is 5'1" and has shot darn near everything. She had a 3" Model 60, an SP-101 with the 3 1/8" barrel and a 3" 686 CS-1 357. She has none of them anymore and has pretty much sworn off wheelguns, except her 4" 631 32 H&R that she likes for plinking/hiking. However, she has a host of 9mm and 45 auto handguns, ranging from a Kahr PM9 to custom 1911's. What won her over was lack of recoil, especially muzzle flip, which hurts her arthritic wrists and fingers, ease and speed of reloading, lighter and shorter travel trigger pulls (another factor when you have arthritis, and faster repeat shots for most humans (Michulek excluded!) due to shorter trigger resets and lighter trigger pulls, and increased wound ballistics.

In my 640 Centennial, the Speer Gold Dots are truly fierce. Since my airweight 642 is an older non-+P rated model, it never sees this load. The 135+P is extremely accurate, maybe the most accurate round I've ever fired in a 38 Special. A new bullet design, they really work, giving better expansion than the 357's in these short barrels (it's true, this isn't hype). In truth, I carry Winchester 38 Wadcutters in my snubbies. In my all steel 640, the Speer's are kept for faster reloads than I can master with the wadcutters.

I've listed the actual performance you can expect from the very best loads in 357, 38 and 9mm. This information is from Dr. Gary K. Roberts, one of the few TRUE experts in wound ballistics. You can take this information to the bank, as Dr. Roberts knows what he is about and is ethical (honest) in the extreme. Rare and refreshing these days! Note: You want at least 12" of penetration in a defense pistol and no more than 18", so here goes:

357 Mag. Winchester 180 gr. Partition Gold (S357P) from S&W 686 4" bbl.:
Bare Gelatin (BG): vel=1075fps, Penetration=18.1". Recovered Diameter(RD)=0.60. Recovered Weight (RW)=171.1gr.
4 Layer Denim: vel=1090fps, pen=20+". RD=0.53, RW=175.6gr.
auto windshield: vel=1072, pen=20+". RD=0.39. RW=178.0gr.

38 Special Speer 135 gr. +P JHP Gold Dot (53921), avg, vel=856fps from S&W J-frame 1 7/8" bbl.:
BG: pen=13.1, RD=0.56", RW=134.5gr.
Denin: pen=13.6", RD=0.53", RW=134.1gr.
auto windshield: pen=9.4", RD=0.51", RW=129.6

9mm Winchester 124+P JHP Ranger (RA124TP) from Glock 17:
BG: vel=1242fps, pen=13.0", RD=0.62", RW=114.7gr.
4 Layer Denim: Vel=1238fps, pen=13.0, RD=0,59, RW=116.8gr.
auto windshield: vel=1235fps,pen=18.9", RD=0.50", RW=117.5gr.

9mm Winchester 147 gr. JHP Ranger (RA9T) FROM gLOCK 17:
bg: VEL=987FPS, PEN=15", rd=0.59", rw=148.1GR.
4 layer denim: vel=1005fps, pen=15.7", RD=0.55", RW=144.1gr

I also looked up the Winchester 145 gr. Silvertip ( amcu older and less well designed bullet) in my IWBA journals and found this information. As with the loads above, this is an average over 5 or more shots. In this case, it's five shots, and no 4 layer testing was performed (ie. a summer load, no heavy clothing. 4 layer denim simulates toughest clothing conditions, as in winter. Nearly all older handgun bullet designs do poorly in this test.)

357 mag. Winchester 145 gr. JHP Silvertip, S&W 686 4" barrel:
pen=10.4", RD=0.56"

You can also expect excellent results from the more readily available 147 gr. and 124 gr. +P loads using the Speer Gold Dot bullets form Speer, Black Hills, etc.

Hope this helps.

rly45acp - you make some very good points vis the S&W M&P. However - are you aware that the Silvertip bullets have gone through a design change in the last couple of years? Reports I've read on the new-design Silvertips (particularly, the 145gr .357) have been quite impressive, and my own testing even shows a marked improvement in velocities. All comparison reports I've been able to find with the 145gr .357 Silvertip against several others are dated and use the old bullet.

But that's a little off the subject, because that's not the load I'd recommend for the SP101 or mod60 in small hands. I just brought that up in reference to the myth of the mini 9mm outperforming the .357 snubby - velocity-to-weight wise.

Leomort - I am unfamiliar with the M&P pistols, but it sounds like they are worth a look. It's gonna be a personal thing, though. Someone who isn't particularly into guns may have their own perception about what is more comfortable and less intimidating, may which have little to do with actual recoil. My wife clearly has a preference against any handgun that has a slide moving back and forth in front of her, regardless of caliber and power level. I don't know if it's the difference in feel of the recoil or the idea of all that mechanical action in her face - heck, I don't know if even she knows. If I could get her to shoot more, it might all become a non-issue.

But the point is - you should give her the opportunity to try and decide which she is most comfortable with and go from there. She may, after a lot of shooting, decide she likes something else better. But there won't be a lot of shooting on her part if she doesn't start with something she likes as a beginner.

I'm not trying to tell leomort what to do, just giving him something else to consider -- just like other posters. Just about all other posts recommended revolvers, but over 20 years as an instructor has taught me that most women, like men, can overcome perceptions that are often imprinted on their minds by others. If she doesn't like the M&P, then so be it. But at least it gives her another option. By exploring all the options ahead of time, it will prevent her from getting something she will regret six months down the road. Too many men have perceptions of what women need, and quite simply, they're wrong. 3" 38's/357 are a POOR choice for most men, let alone women. There are TOO MANY BETTER OPTIONS avalable. I firmly believe men who hunt with handguns or are into cowboy shooting tend to recommend revolvers, while those who are LEO, in the various shooting sports like IDPA, IPSC, etc., prefer autos (this is a generality, or like we say in sociology, it's the norm. There are always exceptions with human beings.). I hunt with handguns, have carried them nearly everyday since doing classified work for Uncle Sam over 30 years ago, am former LEO and LEO firearms instructor, so I've been on both sides of the revolver/semiauto issue. The lady I mentioned above had a serious issue with semiautos when the class started as a result of information given to her by others (mostly her hubby, who is in fact a fine Christian gentleman), but at the end of the day, she decided to go semiauto. My purpose in handing her the XD was to see if she could shoot it better since I wasn't happy with the results we were getting with the 38, and she did -- much better. I worked her through her apprehensions and replaced them with facts. She did the rest, including the decision to get a semiauto based on actual experiences she gained that day. She'll get more training once she finally gets a new pistol, as we put it in abeyance until that time. Keep this in mind: After many hours of training with her 38, she never knocked down more than two plates, which at our range are loacted on the 12 yard line -- a bit far for snubbie and beginner, but with both the XD 9mm and the 1911, she knocked down ALL the plates repeatedly. Her training time on the two semiautos TOGETHER did not come close to equalling the time we spent on the 38-- and we were using light wadcutter loads. The 9's and 45's were factory fodder.

I'd add something else. If possible, I'd suggest leomort find a range, etc., where his wife can rent/shoot as many of the pistols mentioned here as possible. Then there is no mystery. Also, I wish they were closer, so I could take them to the range and work with them. Having an instructor put her at ease and work her way through this with his own pistols and revolvers is much better I've found. It sure has saved folks a lot of money, since they don't end up regretting a purchase. If in the end, she chooses the 38 or 357, it will be because SHE KNOWS FROM EXPERIENCE that this is what works best for her.

Remember, I'm not anti-revolver since I carry one as a backup nearly everyday. I just think that given the information leomort has provided, he may want to consider the 9mm M&P. I don't work for S&W, so I get no financial reward if he buys one, I merely think it MAY be a better choice for her. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Yes, the Sivertips have been improved, and my data is a bit dated. I know the latest round has penetration in the 12" range, but the best performing 357 load today (and this may change tomorrow!), is the 180 gr. load noted above. When I used to carry the 357 for defense, I carried Silvertips in it. There are just far better loads available in the 9mm, 357 Sig, 40 S&W and 45 acp these days because these rounds are getting all the attention by the engineers at the ammo companies because they are primarily LEO loads. You can also add the snubby load, since many LEO carry these for backups. All loads not considered LEO don't get near the attention and updated bullet designs, since it's really not economically feasible for the ammo companies to do this. The 357 hasn't been a significant round in LEO circles since the early 80's.

I think I may have offended you with my prevoius posts and it surely was not my intention. In fact, I was trying very hard not to step on anyones toes. I was merely trying to point out that recent advances in bullet designs have taken the 9mm, which I once despised because of its ineffectiveness, and made it superior to current 357 loads. It's merely a matter of design. Too many think velocity gives them a more effective cartridge. Bullet design gives you a more effectice round if, unlike certain ammo companies, you load said round within the velocity parameters for which it was designed.

The mini-9mm does outperform the 357 snubs. It's not a myth it's scientific fact. Contact Dr. Gary Roberts if you doubt me. Go to the post thread about the XD's and see the chronograph data I posted there. Those velocities are well within the designed velocity parameters of those bullets, and so are the 147's -- they perform VERY WELL (well, very well for a pistol round!) and when you look at the results above with the 9mm 124gr. +P load, it works great in the 3" XD, and without the overpenetraion of the 357 180 gr. load. We carry the 147 gr. Ranger load in my wife's PM9 and trust me, it is far better, all the way around, then any 357 load. Oh, terminal performance is on par with the 180 gr. Nosler, maybe a tad better, but the perp won't know any difference, since it's too close to call. But I guarantee the 357 recoils more, is harder to control in followup shots, is slower to reload and will not come from the factory with tritium night sights (and she has a lot better chance of being assaulted at night). Keep in mind, just because a certain caliber recoils more or has more velocity or muzzle blast doesn't mean it's terminal wound ballistics are better. You also must take in the total picture. That is, both terminal effect and the handguns efficiency. 357's have far more drawbacks than advantages when viewed purely from a personal defense perspective. If it were my wife, I want as many advantages on her side, and I firmly believe if leomorts wife learns to shoot an M&P well (and I think 95% of CCW's in the U.S. are NOT trained properly, nor do they have the proper mindset to truly defend themselves.) she will be far better off than if she put the same amount of training time into ANY revolver. In fact, for a given number of hours of training, I can pretty much guarantee far more impressive results with a beginning student with a good Glock/XD/M&P/1911 semiauto than a beginning student with a revolver or traditional DA/SA semiauto. When I was at Gunsite, Jeff Cooper said virtually the same thing and in our class I got to see it with my own eyes. In the intervening years, I've had this reinforced many, many times. But as with all things, YMMV.

Your quote "Blessed are the peacemakers..." may indicate you are a Christian. So am I. In keeping the second greatest commandment to love my neighbor as I love myself, I try to help people to really learn proper and effective defensive techniques and mindset so if something comes between them and perdition, they have greatly improved odds of surviving. Keep that in mind when you read anything I wrote above.

Your brother in Christ.

rly45acp:
"I think I may have offended you with my prevoius posts..."

Not at all, sir. In fact - we mostly agree about most everything. I just disagree (partially) about some aspects of your take on the revolver vs mini auto thing - even if we agree on some of the details.

Sometimes, discussions on the 'net seem terse or confrontational though not intended so. I always try to keep that in mind while I'm reading, but sometimes forget to account for that while I'm writing.

You have experience with training far more fair shooters than I - so I would never discount what you are saying in that line. Just pointing out the obvious - as did you - that the lady should make the choice. Even if she chooses "wrong" and changes her mind later. The important thing, IMO, is that she retains her interest to shoot.

That "rumor" about the "J" frame Smiths not being able to take a steady diet of hotter ammo got started way back when some tried the then new +P loads in the older alloy frame guns. It's not a problem with either the stainless or the newer alloy guns.
I've never seen or shot a Ruger that had nearly as nice a trigger as you can get right out of the box with a Smith. I've played with some that had very nice DA triggers, but not SA triggers.
Don't let anyone tell you a Smith 60 won't shoot. My current 3 inch will put all five of my handloads ( 6.5 grs. of Unique and a 158 gr. swagged Remington bullet) into 3/4 of an inch at 15 yds. With that kind of accuracy, it is very nice to have adjustable sights as well.
The above load, BTW, is all I want in such a light gun. E

Rly45acp and FreeMe,

Thank you both for you informative posts. I'll have the wife give the S&W M&P a try. Damn guy at the gunstore informed the wife of the Crimson Trace grips that's she gaga for. This gonna cost me $$$$ not matter which way I end up going

Crimson Trace is also coming out with them for the M&P.. Now we've really muddied the waters!

I used to carry a S&W M36 as a back up, then Ruger came out with the SP 101 I carried it asa back up for the rest of My LE career. I have not carried for the last seven or eight years unless travaling. But I am continuing to run into excons who would not be excans had I not had a good LE career. I am thinking about getting a CCW. I am legal for carry any how by Fede law but I refused to get a CCW until every one could Kansas CCW just went into effect last January so I think I may get one.
IMHO the Ruger is a much better handgun for CCW that the S&W but that is my opinion. It is a bit heavier, that helps control. The grips on mine have been Houges for years but grips are a personal thing. For CCW you are not shooting competion you are protecting yourself ajustable sites are not needed nor are they really wanted since they are seldom going to be used anyhow. Adjustables can get knocked out of adjustment fixed wont. Practice should be with billisticly simmaler ammo so you have no need to change sight settings once the fixed ones are on target. BTW I have found that the 125 GRN JHP's shoot the best through the SP almost as if the sites are preset for that round.

rly45acp,

My wife has/had carpal tunnel in both her wrist. Even though she's had surgery to correct it, she still has recurrying problems with her wrists. Do you still recommend the S&W M&P in 9mm? Thanks.


Leo