|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 947
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 947 |
A) Barnes does not make sabots. MMP makes the sabots for Barnes
B) If you are having a hard time loading sabots you chose the wrong sabot
C) Go buy a sabot that fits correctly and load your rifle the way it was designed to be loaded.
You can buy nearly every sabot that comes with bullets by itself for under $10/50. Why you people who been shooting for years dont know this is beyond me. You can get sabots as small as .500 OD and if you cant load that you need some exercise or you got a really bad barrel.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,209 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,209 Likes: 1 |
Quit giving in inch by inch then looking back to lament the mile behind ya and wonder how to preserve those few feet left in front of ya. They'll never stop until they're stopped. That's a fact.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 947
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 947 |
Most Barnes come with the MMP HPH-12 or HPH-24 dyed blue instead of black. The TMZ sabot is the only one you can not buy separately. The TEZ sabot is the HPH-24. If you need a easier loading TMZ type sabot use the Harvester yellow sabot for boatails or the Knight blue sabot for boattails if its really tight. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/WvKHo1O.jpg)
Last edited by Overkill45; 02/02/20.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,954
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,954 |
Duh! "Help them Father for they know not what they do!"   Preach it!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,108
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,108 |
Most Barnes come with the MMP HPH-12 or HPH-24 dyed blue instead of black None of those are what I use. Back when Barnes first came out with these, and Walmart was selling them, Around Feb. or March each year all black powder stuff was marked down, every year. I bought up a bunch of these packages for a very cheap price. I have all that I will ever use, and my rifle shoots them well. They do fit tight, but I can seat the plastic part with my ramrod, drop the bullet in and seat it, and it comes to the same mark on my ramrod as the regular seated ones do. I am not telling anybody to do this, but the question was asked and answered if anybody did this. Yes I have shot muzzle loaders for long time and started with a Hawkins. Unlike some here, I prefer the minnie ball over the patched round ball. You do what works for you and I will do what works for me. miles
Look out for number 1, don't step in number 2.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 203
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 203 |
Bullet will enter the sabot easier if you load them nose first.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,202
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,202 |
Why would you do that?
That’s silly. To save time and effort of course. Particularly if you need to reload quickly for a follow up shot without swabbing the bore. How is doing something completely incorrect "saving time and effort"? The sabot fits on the outside of the bullet, not behind it.
One shot, one kill........ It saves a lot of ammo!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 947
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 947 |
None of those are what I use. Back when Barnes first came out with these, and Walmart was selling them, Around Feb. or March each year all black powder stuff was marked down, every year. If you are shooting a Barnes 50cal sabot you are using 1 of the 3 sabots i mentioned. They are mostly likely HPH-12 and you can buy smaller sabots that will load much easier. The fact you dont understand this is troubling coming for someone who has shot a ML for a long time and is on a hunting forum. Go buy a smaller loaded OD sabot and see for yourself. You got the list right infront of you know. There are several sabots from both Harvester and MMP that will load easier than what you are using.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 74
Campfire Greenhorn
|
|
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 74 |
Sabots fit tight for a reason, and most are a bit difficult to load.
There's a right way, a wrong way, and a.....nope, that's all the ways, and what your doing is the wrong way.
Youthful enthusiasm is replaced by old age and treachery!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,108
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,108 |
If you are shooting a Barnes 50cal sabot you are using 1 of the 3 sabots i mentioned I may be using one that you mentioned, but not one pictured. Mine looks mostly like the Knight bullets but not exactly. It has a black sabot and the nose has a great big hollow point, and the base is tapered. There is no way that the base of the bullet can catch the sabot petals unless they are badly deformed. I have seen where I do not have a clue about loading, but maybe I am no the only clueless person. I know a lot of people that if you do not do it their way, it is wrong. I do know that you can buy just the plastic sabot part. This setup is highly accurate in my rifle. My bullet is getting to the same place as it would loading the conventional way. If for some reason it does not, it will show on the mark I have on my ramrod. I do always look. I don't see this as dangerous, but you and some more seem to. I always load my rifle before I leave my house on a hunt, as I hunt my own land, and if it does not seat properly, I have the means to fix it right then. This has never happened, but could. In my mind this is no more dangerous that not seating the sabot and bullet on the powder properly. Again, if you do not want to do this, fine. I am not advocating it at all, but a question was asked, and I answered. miles
Look out for number 1, don't step in number 2.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,719 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,719 Likes: 2 |
Bullet will enter the sabot easier if you load them nose first.
Even birds know not to land downwind!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 161
Campfire Member
|
|
OP
Campfire Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 161 |
Why would you do that?
That’s silly. To save time and effort of course. Particularly if you need to reload quickly for a follow up shot without swabbing the bore. And what if you crush a sabot petal between the base of the bullet and itself? Oh you're screwed if that happens. Like breaking a rod or getting a load stuck halfway down. Going to have to remove the breech and push it out unless the bullet will fall out the muzzle and you can remove the sabot with the weight of powder or a ball puller. But you may not know that it happened..? Then what? In your experience, how did you not know that it had happened? I don't see how it saves any time/swabbing, at all. Do you see how a board press takes less time and effort than a standard bench press using the same weight? Ya lost me on that analogy, since you are adding a step. In addition, should you fail to seat the bullet properly in the sabot, you now have the goat @#$% of attempting to get everything back out. Do what you want. You didn't convince me of any advantage. It's probably my fault for just assuming you were familiar with common bench press accessory lifts so I'll explain. The extra step is when you place the board on your chest to shorten the range of motion and improve leverage. Does anyone load their muzzleloader this way:
drop powder/pellets
push empty sabot down barrel with ramrod onto charge
drop bullet down barrel and press into sabot with ramrod
No. No one with any meaningful experience does this. Areyou asking, or are you trying to convince? Its a bad idea for 3 or 4 reasons, and a good idea for none. 4 posts later... Well to be the odd man out, I do. I have a Thompson Center inline, with a tight barrel causing sabots to be hard to push down the barrel. I use Barnes Sabots, and they have a tapered base. I also have my ramrod marked so that I know if the bullet does not seat all the way. Never had a problem with the bullet not seating, nor any accuracy problems using this method. I have been doing this for a lot of years, and have killed several deer with this rifle, using this method. I also use pyrodex, and leave my rifle loaded from year to year, if it has not been shot since cleaning. I also never had a misfire doing this. I use musket caps and the nipple is made with holes on the side and end of the inside part of the nipple. miles How did you test this method out prior to firing? I started with a transparent quickload tube just to see the action with the different bullet/sabot combos we had on hand. I then tested the Barnes MZ expander without a charge, unscrewed the breech plug, and pushed the bullet/sabot out. It came out fitted exactly as you would start it down the barrel using the standard loading method. After trying this a few times (same results) I sacrificed a sabot by folding a petal towards the center, dropped the bullet and seated with the ramrod. As anyone who has thought about this for a minute already figured out, the petal provided no resistance compared with seating correctly inside the sabot. Cutting into precious goat [bleep] time, I spun out the plug and pushed the failed load out. A) Barnes does not make sabots. MMP makes the sabots for Barnes
B) If you are having a hard time loading sabots you chose the wrong sabot
C) Go buy a sabot that fits correctly and load your rifle the way it was designed to be loaded.
You can buy nearly every sabot that comes with bullets by itself for under $10/50. Why you people who been shooting for years dont know this is beyond me. You can get sabots as small as .500 OD and if you cant load that you need some exercise or you got a really bad barrel. This year was the first for a 6 day muzzleloader bear season concurrent with the muzzleloader doe and either sex archery seasons. My girlfriend tagged a buck on Saturday and was offered the use of another camp members muzzleloader to hunt does/bears on Monday. She couldn't load what the guy was using so we picked up some Barnes TEZ in town when we got her muzzleloader permit. She struggled to load those on a clean barrel and reloading after a shot wasn't happening. Using a smaller sabot wasn't something we didn't know about, we couldn't buy anything smaller than the HPH24 that comes with the TEZ locally and you aren't getting online orders delivered the same day. Since we planned to drive laurel patches and swampy areas we ultimately decided to keep her close to me, limit her to the one shot in the barrel and I could reload for her in the event that that was necessary.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 649
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 649 |
It's 2020. We obviously have the internet at our fingertips.
Shooting something that doesn't load properly is just silly IMO. There ARE options opposed to loading them in a manner they aren't designed to be loaded. Most seasons are over. Order up what you need to load properly...hit the range and do some shooting.
I have 1 fast twist barrel (I'm a flintlock shooter).
I skipped messing with sabots completely. I ordered a sizing pack from Thor. Found what size loaded properly in that barrel. Ordered a small pack of 250s and 300s in that size. The gun showed it absolutely loved 300s. Insanely accurate. Ordered a 50 pack and don't have to worry about that gun. They aren't cheap so I haven't shot enough to find out if there is a point where they won't load...but with Goex black powder, I've loaded several times without cleaning and they all go down just fine.
Loading the sabot then seating the bullet seems risky. But to each his own. Not my hands and face around the barrel.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,108
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,108 |
Loading the sabot then seating the bullet seems risky. But to each his own. Not my hands and face around the barrel. I do this with an inline, which is the only muzzle loader that I use sabots in, and as long as the bullet, sabot, powder charge, seats where my ramrod mark indicates it should, I do not see the perceived risk that the rest of you do. If it should not seat at the right place, I would simple remove the breech plug and push it all out. This has never happened. miles
Look out for number 1, don't step in number 2.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,518
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,518 |
I have an application where this works great! While loading a soft round ball in a 50cal or 45 cal sabot. You are able to compress the powder - American pioneer/Shockey's Gold, Trip7 etc... Then drop the Rball down and gently press it into the sabot - Plunks right in easily! You will find about 80-100ish grains, will send the 36cal Rball with .357 MMP Sabot into 2600+ FPS, and same for the 50cal Rball and .451-2 MMP Sabot I got about 1.5 - 2 inch accuracy at 100 yards. A great way to use up some old powder  Weight - 36cal Rball = 70grains, 45cal Rball = about 141grains ( By loading the sabot first and compressing the powder, you won't end up deforming the soft lead Rball. These are Low Cost - lightning fast shooters with absolutely no kick!!  )![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/533/Z5ziAU.jpg)
Last edited by lanenebraska; 02/06/20.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8,900
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8,900 |
Why would you do that?
That’s silly. To save time and effort of course. Particularly if you need to reload quickly for a follow up shot without swabbing the bore. And what if you crush a sabot petal between the base of the bullet and itself? Oh you're screwed if that happens. Like breaking a rod or getting a load stuck halfway down. Going to have to remove the breech and push it out unless the bullet will fall out the muzzle and you can remove the sabot with the weight of powder or a ball puller. But you may not know that it happened..? Then what? In your experience, how did you not know that it had happened? I don't see how it saves any time/swabbing, at all. Do you see how a board press takes less time and effort than a standard bench press using the same weight? Ya lost me on that analogy, since you are adding a step. In addition, should you fail to seat the bullet properly in the sabot, you now have the goat @#$% of attempting to get everything back out. Do what you want. You didn't convince me of any advantage. It's probably my fault for just assuming you were familiar with common bench press accessory lifts so I'll explain. The extra step is when you place the board on your chest to shorten the range of motion and improve leverage. Does anyone load their muzzleloader this way:
drop powder/pellets
push empty sabot down barrel with ramrod onto charge
drop bullet down barrel and press into sabot with ramrod
No. No one with any meaningful experience does this. Areyou asking, or are you trying to convince? Its a bad idea for 3 or 4 reasons, and a good idea for none. 4 posts later... Well to be the odd man out, I do. I have a Thompson Center inline, with a tight barrel causing sabots to be hard to push down the barrel. I use Barnes Sabots, and they have a tapered base. I also have my ramrod marked so that I know if the bullet does not seat all the way. Never had a problem with the bullet not seating, nor any accuracy problems using this method. I have been doing this for a lot of years, and have killed several deer with this rifle, using this method. I also use pyrodex, and leave my rifle loaded from year to year, if it has not been shot since cleaning. I also never had a misfire doing this. I use musket caps and the nipple is made with holes on the side and end of the inside part of the nipple. miles How did you test this method out prior to firing? I started with a transparent quickload tube just to see the action with the different bullet/sabot combos we had on hand. I then tested the Barnes MZ expander without a charge, unscrewed the breech plug, and pushed the bullet/sabot out. It came out fitted exactly as you would start it down the barrel using the standard loading method. After trying this a few times (same results) I sacrificed a sabot by folding a petal towards the center, dropped the bullet and seated with the ramrod. As anyone who has thought about this for a minute already figured out, the petal provided no resistance compared with seating correctly inside the sabot. Cutting into precious goat [bleep] time, I spun out the plug and pushed the failed load out. A) Barnes does not make sabots. MMP makes the sabots for Barnes
B) If you are having a hard time loading sabots you chose the wrong sabot
C) Go buy a sabot that fits correctly and load your rifle the way it was designed to be loaded.
You can buy nearly every sabot that comes with bullets by itself for under $10/50. Why you people who been shooting for years dont know this is beyond me. You can get sabots as small as .500 OD and if you cant load that you need some exercise or you got a really bad barrel. This year was the first for a 6 day muzzleloader bear season concurrent with the muzzleloader doe and either sex archery seasons. My girlfriend tagged a buck on Saturday and was offered the use of another camp members muzzleloader to hunt does/bears on Monday. She couldn't load what the guy was using so we picked up some Barnes TEZ in town when we got her muzzleloader permit. She struggled to load those on a clean barrel and reloading after a shot wasn't happening. Using a smaller sabot wasn't something we didn't know about, we couldn't buy anything smaller than the HPH24 that comes with the TEZ locally and you aren't getting online orders delivered the same day. Since we planned to drive laurel patches and swampy areas we ultimately decided to keep her close to me, limit her to the one shot in the barrel and I could reload for her in the event that that was necessary. The board press analogy may seem good to you, but it does add a step to the lift. It's an strange, reaching kind of analogy. I honestly don't need you or anyone else to school me in that lift. It just is a stupid analogy. Presumably, you load the sabot first because it's too tight, with the bullet in it. Personally, I think the best solution, is to find a better fitting projectile. You are really taking more time to load. Powder, sabot and bullet, ram home, as opposed to powder, sabot, bullet, ram home. More time, improper use of the system. Maybe it works for you. Wonderful. I'd like to see how the manufacturer feels about it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,108
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,108 |
As Jerry Clowers Uncle Versy said," What is time to a hog?" miles
Look out for number 1, don't step in number 2.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,247 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,247 Likes: 1 |
Damn guys, if any are having a little trouble seating a plastic sabot, spit on the damn thing and shove it home, piece of cake.
Trump Won!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 499
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 499 |
Best thing to do is just to learn to do it right, get the correct fitting sabot/bullet combination to begin with all it takes is a little bit of time to experiment with different size sabots. Then you will have eliminated a extra step and can load even faster then what you are doing.
Spitting on sabots is not a good idea either, sabots do not need lubrication they just need correct size for your bore/bullet.
Making black powder smoke is a great thing..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,108
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,108 |
Best thing to do is just to learn to do it right, So who is the keyboard expert that should dictate what I do? miles
Look out for number 1, don't step in number 2.
|
|
|
|
|
590 members (12344mag, 1minute, 1OntarioJim, 01Foreman400, 16penny, 10gaugeman, 66 invisible),
2,511
guests, and
1,419
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,191
Posts18,484,971
Members73,966
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
