Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles .280 -- What would be your next step?

I'm as accustomed to not getting "book" velocities as I am to not shooting "book" deer but this rifle's really got me scratching my head.

Rifle is a brand new Ruger 77 Mk. II in .280. Stainless/synthetic with a 22" barrel. Mounted a well proven Leupold Vari-X III 2.5-8x36. Even lapped the rings. (Returned *exactly* to zero after taking it off to add a Timney trigger.) I know the barrel's shorter than most or all of the test barrels but I figure it's still not accounting for the discrepancy; I should lose about 50 fps for the 2" shorter, I believe.

I've played with several non-premium bullets to try and find a good powder. According to various manuals and the writings of Rifle magazine's finest authors, RL-19 and H4831 (I confess that I used the "SC" variety) ought to be good. I also tried H4350 because I have a whole bunch of it on hand. All loads used new or once-fired Remington brass, sorted for neck thickness, and WLR primers, and all bullets were seated .030" from the lands.

Results so far:

145-gr. Speer SP/H4350. Good accuracy and consistent velocities at all charge levels. But velocity at 53 gr. (half a grain over the max load in the Speer manual) averaged 2762 fps. Speer lists 2950.

150-gr. Sierra MatchKing/H4831(SC). Poor accuracy aside, average velocity with 57.0 gr. (half a grain over Sierra's max load) is 2774 fps. Sierra lists 2900 at max load.

Figured I got good accuracy with the Speer and better velocities with H4831(SC) so I tried those together. Went two grains over their book's max load to get close to book velocity, 2826 fps with good accuracy. Book max load gave me 2746 fps. Though this isn't supposed to be a temperature-sensitive powder, I was shooting at 35 deg. F. Not sure I want to push it this far on my August pronghorn hunt.

Thought I'd try a heavier bullet, the 154-gr. Hornady Spire Point, again with H4831(SC). Got so-so accuracy-- and noticed that either at, or a grain over, Hornady's max load, I had leaky primer pockets. Since then I've not worried so much about this because I've noticed it with much lower loads and suspect the Winchester primers just seat a little loose, which I've noticed in other cartridges.

Scratched my head some more and studied the manuals some more. RL-19 gets high marks so I tried that. First I tried the 139-gr. Hornady Spire Point (since Mule Deer says nice things about it in the current Handloader). Hornady, Lyman and Alliant all say a max load of 57 -58 gr. should push, though not exceed, 3000 fps. I got 2854 fps with 58.0 gr. and accuracy was nothing to write home about at any charge level.

For comparison I tried the same bullet with H4831(SC). The maximum load of 58.0 gr. (Hornady and Lyman agree) was much more accurate than 56 or 57, one group at 1" and one at .44" Velocity was 2837 fps, actually close enough to chalk it up to barrel length. I would be pretty skeptical of reaching the 3100 fps Mule Deer reports with a 60 gr. charge, though his was in a custom rifle, probably tighter chambered.

Finally I tried RL-19 with the proven 145-gr. Speer. Accuracy was inconsistent and so was velocity. While a 56.0 gr. charge gave an ES of 7 for 3 shots, I got a 101 fps spread with a 57.0 gr. charge, and primers (I know, I know, but a clue is a clue) varied from utterly normal to pancake-flat.

If you've gotten this far, here are my questions:

1. Would you try a different powder? I think I've exhausted this part of the burn rate chart but I do have a bunch of RL-22.

2. What would be the first premium bullet you would try? I've been thinking of the 140-gr. Fail Safe, 140-gr. Barnes XLC, or 150-gr. Nosler Partition.



John

If it were my 280, I would take a good look at the throat. I suspect it has a long throat and may need to go 2-3 grains over "book" max to match speeds and pressure of the load books. Your accuracy should improve a bunch by seating the bullets out to touch or nearly touch the rifling.

Also, I've never had much luck w/ WLR primers. I would try CCI BR-2's and Fed 215's and see what they do. Good luck...

I would forget about getting top velocities at the moment and find an accurate load. Once you get a load that shoots well enough to show promise, as a few of yours do, then I would start to tinker a bit with the cartridges.

The first thing I would do is seat your bullets closer to the lands. I usually work about .005" from the lands with my final loads and find it makes a huge difference to get the seating depth just right.
As James stated, try different primers also. I've always used CCI primers and have never had reason to cuss 'em. They just plain work with all the powders I've used, but especially with the powders you are trying, H4831SC, RL19, H4350, etc...
Another thing to try is to deburr your flash holes. I found that I didn't necessarily gain much in velocity, but my groups got much more consistent when I started using the debur tool while prepping my brass. And remember you only have to do it once to each piece of brass.
Have you checked your bedding?
I'm sure there are lots of other things that will be suggested, but these are the steps I usually go through when starting with a new gun/load to get where I want to be. Good luck and let us know how it works out.- Sheister

The chronograph may be wrong. Measure the distance between the screens and that the eye is square.

Do other rifles check out?

120 Barnes XBT's will give you 200 fps more than a 140 and a flat trajectory for antelope and certainly effectively down an antelope. I get about 3075 fps in my 280 with a 22" barrel and RL 22, IMR 4350, and H4350 with good accuracy. I get about 3000 with H4831 and RL 19 and superb accuracy. That is with Winchester nickel brass from Midway and WLR primers. The new Speer manuals alow only 50 grains of IMR 4350 for 145 Speers but the old 10 edition allowed 55.5 with CCI 200 for 2975 fps and I get 2950 with my 280's using Rem brass. Place scotch tape over the eyes of your chrony and use diffusers. You may see an increase of about 50 fps. I have had this happen. Every factory barrel is a law unto itself and there are "slow" barrels. I have a Ruger in another caliber that is 75 to 100 fps slower than the manuals and it will not go any faster w/o pressure. Sometimes, the more rounds you put through a slow barrel and a little J-B paste and you may see some velocity gains.

This is only a guess,but the barrel needs more breakin ? I have a problem 264,at about 75 rounds,as my powder charges increased by a grain ,my velocities decreased slightly <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.Your problem shuldn't be as bad in a 1/2 mm bigger bore.

Loading manual data is taken form min spec chambers, but factory rifles have max spec chambers. For a given bullet to reach a given velocicty with a given powder out of a given length barrel, it will take a certain pressure. The larger chamber of the factory rifle requires more powder to reach the same velocities as the smaller test barrel chamber. Thus, you will need to increase powder levels until you reach desired velocities. Obviously, watch out for pressure signs on the way and back off at the first sign.

In my mind, the chrono is the best loading tool we have. You will be very close to published pressures when you reach the published velocity. It also follows if your velocity is--with a given powder/bullet/barrel length, the your pressure is low. Also, if your velocities are high, most likely your pressures are high.

My final disclaimer: If you are ever in doubt, then back off the powder charge.

Blaine

Cheaha,

If anything, the throat is a bit short. Most cannelured bullets are seated far enough into the case that the cannelure disappears completely.

I do think I'm going to switch primers for the next round of trials.

Boss --

More wear and tear on the barrel may produce some results. If anything this barrel is a little tight, I have to use a .270 jag to get a regular cleaning patch through it and the first pass or two still take some work.

John

Don,

I have no concerns about the chronograph, it's open all the way and velocities at this session with the other rifle I shot were consistent with past results. Various loads in other rifles have also chronoed right where they ought to over the past 2 years.

Should also mention that I do use tape over the "eyes" and diffusers when it's sunny, as it was yesterday.

John

All of the above and I went through most of what you are going through, IMR 4350 , RL 19 , RL22 and the blue pills in 140 gr. My RL19 velocities were down as well. If your staying with deer for your 280 , here is one of the best loads I've come up with a 22" pipe on a stock Remington 280 .

57 gr. IMR 4831
WLRM primers
REM brass ( easy on brass )
139 gr. Hornady SST's (seated to cannular. no crimp)
2960 fps
3/16 " groups ..... all day , any day
really spanks deer , HARD

Can get 1/4 " with 160 Sierra BT's @ 2900 + fps ( which I don't understand )
1" with 140 Nosler Partitions
I also found the "books" a guidline , with some loads above book velocity and other below , the fun part is the playing. My rifle is bedded and barrel free floated. The only thing I could add is clean your barrel.

bowzer, sounds like your done with that 280. you should bring it down across the border and sell it to me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
woofer

John,

Try slugging your barrel (or have someone else do it) if you really think it may be on the tight side. You can try fire-lapping the barrel to remove the tight spots if you think it's an issue. Does it copper foul very much?

HogWild

It copper fouled horribly at first but settled down pretty quickly, now is better than most of my other rifles.

I am betting that slower powder is the fix, looking at the manuals almost all of them show the highest velocity with powders slower than H4831, such as RL-22, H1000, AA 3100, etc. -- even with bullets as light as 140. Next trip to the range I'll try RL-22 behind 154-gr. Hornadies because the 150-gr. Partition is the bullet I really want to shoot once I get the bugs ironed out, and IMR 4350 and 4831 with the 139s just to make sure I've covered all bases.

But RL-22 worked so well with 150-gr. bullets in my .270 (easily at and beyond book velocities with excellent accuracy) that I am preemptively kicking myself for not trying it in the .280, especially since I have a great big jug of it in the shop.

Of course I've buggered up all the science of the accuracy part of the thing, by restocking the rifle in the meantime.

John

I believe I'm on the right track. Today I tried RL-22, IMR 4831 and IMR 4350, all with the Hornady 139-gr. Spire Point.

IMR 4831 was not bad. 3 shots of the highest load I tested went 2917 fps avg. Correcting for barrel length and chronograph distance I was almost at the Hornady "book velocity" of 3000 fps with a load almost 2 grains over their maximum. Accuracy was OK -- 1.22" for 3 shots. Group size seemed consistent with the lesser charges, too.

IMR 4350 was slower. The pressure-tested data I could find was Lyman (54.0 gr. for 2912 fps) and Hornady (53.7 gr. for 3000 fps). I went to 55.0 gr. and got 2832 fps avg. for 3 shots, with a 1.24" group.

The big hit, as I'd hypothesized, was RL-22. Alliant shows 59.5 gr. for 3000 fps out of a 24" barrel. I went to 60.0 gr. and got 3002 fps average for the first 3-shot group and 3003 fps avg. for the second. Even happier was the accuracy -- 1.08" for the first group and 0.81" for the second.

Since the bullet I really want to shoot is the more expensive 150-gr. Partition, I also tried the 154-gr. Hornady SP with RL-22. Hornady shows 58.4 gr. giving 2900 fps. I only went to 58.0 gr. and got 2885 fps avg. for 3 shots -- right on the money -- and a 0.34" group.

I was obviously very happy with these results. Will try RL-22 first with any bullet in the .280, may even back off the charges a hair because it was only 45-50 degrees when I was shooting today. The low SAAMI maximum pressure for the .280 sure does give a nice little cushion for safety.

I was also happy with the results of bedding the rifle in Acraglas Gel in a Boyd's JRS laminate stock. With the factory synthetic stock I'd had some horizontal stringing of groups, probably due to contact on the sides of the barrel channel. On the JRS I underestimated the volume of the inletting in the chamber area and didn't get it supported the way I'd like. But with accuracy results like these, who cares? I'm going to move straight on to sanding and finishing.

John

My .280 sports a custom barrel. But my old one was a 22 inch Remington Mtn. rifle. It liked max loads of H4831 and the 160 gr. Nosler Partition clocking 2770 fps. Shot them right at an inch. Much loading data is for Remington semi-autos. In a bolt gun, I load them as you would any other bolt gun round.
My new one like 120 gr. barnes XBT's over 59 grs. of Re-19. Right at 3160 fps, and mild pressures. It's 1 gr. under the Barnes data. .2-.5 MOA. WLR primers.
I note that top velocities, even at the higher pressures, seem to vary some with different brands of the same weight bullets for whatever reason. E

John
I ordered Hor 139 SST's after reading your post on the 139 Spires and RL 22. I got 3003 with 59 of RL 22 but this lot of RL 22 is a little warm and it would have taken about 60.5 of my older lots to get this. This was a 22 inch barrel. It may become my new load as I get a lot of deviation on the 145 Speers and IMR 4350 that I posted on earlier. I have heard good things about the SST. I got 2935 with 55 of H4350. Accuracy was excellent with the RL 22 and fair with the H4350.

For a working load and peace of mind I'm going to drop down to 59.5 gr. of RL-22 under the 139-gr. bullet (max. load shown in Alliant's data). I shot 60.0 gr. this weekend and got 3050 fps from a 22" barrel at 65 deg. F., which seems a little warm. I'm still averaging .995" for 3-shot groups with that bullet.

Bad news is the 150-gr. Nosler Partitions just wouldn't shoot. I hauled all my gear to the range, fiddled with seating depths, tried 2 standard primers and one magnum, and averaged 2" groups no matter what.

If I take my .280 on my pig hunt, I think I'll just use the 154-gr. Hornady then switch to the 139 for pronghorns and deer this fall. If I have time maybe I'll try the 140-gr. Partition, Fail Safe or Barnes X but if a given bullet doesn't give promising results first time out, the heck with it and I can save the rest to try in my 7mm-08 when I finally get that stock done.

John, I presume you checked the bedding. The other thing I'd make sure of is the middle action screw. It needs to be finger tight only, not like the front and rear screws at all. E

Eremicus,

Bedding & screw tightness is fine (just as you said).

After shooting all those 1.7-2.9" groups with the 150-gr. Partitions I fired a "control group" with a known accurate load (139-gr. Hornady SP over 58.0 gr. H4831SC, 2850 fps) and got a group that as I recall was 1.01", right in the same very small ballpark as the average .995" for all the groups I've shot with that bullet.

I think this is a case where I just have to chalk it up to the bullet and move on.

One thing I've noticed is that this rifle seems to have an exceptionally short throat. Hornady bullets seated .030" from the lands are deep enough in the case that the cannelures completely disappear, and maximum loads are compressed loads with most of the slow burning powders (4831 and slower). Generally I'm getting the best results with loads that just about exactly fill the case.

So lighter bullets may be in order. May go crazy and try the 130-gr. X, I think it's about the same length as the 139 Hornady.

John

If I recall right, John, the 120 gr. XBT is about the same lenth. I really like the 120 gr. XBT in mine. E