Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles 45-70 vs. 444 vs. 44 mag lever gun

Preface: I don't *need* either for hunting. But I love lever guns and I've got the small bores covered (25-35, 32-20, 30-30). Also have a .44 mag Super BH, which pulls that into consideration for a rifle, but at first glance, it seems to pale in comparison to the other two.

Which would you pick up and why?

P.S. I also love to pretend I'm going to shoot a free range Bison with a lever gun, so this factors in. (I know "pretend is not real" but I've got him blocked, so I'll see no evil...)

I have a soft spot for the .444, but it seems to be slowly fading again. The .45-70 is probably the most versatile, with factory loads from pipsqueak to cape buffalo stompers available - of course if you handload the range is even wider. The .44 would make a nice companion to the pistol, but in my opinion doesn't offer enough of velocity increase in the rifle, especially if your intent is to shoot the same loads in both.

I know people shoot deer and hogs with the 44, but it does seem to be on the anemic side for bigger game. How does a big game 444 load compare to 300 winmag recoil?

I have a soft spot for the .444, but it seems to be slowly fading again. The .45-70 is probably the most versatile, with factory loads from pipsqueak to cape buffalo stompers available - of course if you handload the range is even wider. The .44 would make a nice companion to the pistol, but in my opinion doesn't offer enough of velocity increase in the rifle, especially if your intent is to shoot the same loads in both.

If buffalo are more than a fantasy hands down the 45-70. The others are in a different league although the 444 can be loaded up quite a bit. The 45-70 can cover all the same bases and more with reloading. The only negative is if you wanted a short light rifle, carbines are available for the 45-70 but they make the hot loads not much fun. Depends on the platform but from your other lever choices looks like you like the traditional ones. There are a lot of choices in 45-70.
More than the other two but the 44 will be close in number of rifles offered the 444 not so much.

You start getting up around 2,000 FPS with anything 350 and over in a 45-70, and you’ll know when you touch it off.

I've Moose hunted with the 44 mag and the 450 Marlin. Killed a Moose with the 450. I've killed deer with the 44 mag and 45-70. I guess if I had to pick it would be the 45-70.

I’ve never used either but, comparing bullet/brass choices and availability, I would lean toward the 45/70. Also, the 45/70 has the nostalgic history aura.🙂

I have a Marlin 1894SS in 44 mag that I carry in deer season. The stainless steel and short light gun are nice for rainy days in the brush.
The 444 gives you a 265 grain bullet at speeds of the 200 grain in the 44 mag rifle.
I have shot thousands of rounds of 45-70. Original Springfield Trapdoor rifles and carbines, Winchester 1886 (circa 1910), Browning 1886, Ruger No 1, and a couple of Marlins.
The lead bullet loaded for original Springfield is anemic(1350 fps/Level 1 data)), but effective. Deer run of a bit before falling over from blood loss. I have yet to shoot one with the 405 JSP loaded for the Winchester (level 2 data). The 300 grain Speer JHP (actually a flat point with a slight dimple) loaded with 52 grains of Re-7 drops them where they stand. That load is top end and only for Marlins or Rugers.

clockwork –

Are you a reloader? If not, that would argue for the .44 Mag. If not, the .45-70 gets my vote, hands down.

My collection includes a Ruger Super Redhawk in .44 Mag, a Browning B92 in .44 Mag and a Marlin 1895 .45-70. There is NOTHING the .44 Mag or .444 can do that the .45-70 cannot do as well or better, except when it comes to less expensive ammo for the .44 Mag.

Factory loads for the .45-70 run from ‘mild to wild’. Standard 405g loads at about 1300fps are actually pretty low recoil. Subsonic loads are available with even lower recoil. For hunting you have factory 350g loads at 2150fps. HAndlaods extend your options much further, such as the cowboy loads listed at gmdr.com where a tiny load of pistol powder under hardcast yields 22LR velocities at very low cost.

With the right load, 300 yard shots on big game are easily doable and ethical using a .45-70. The 6x6 bull elk I killed at 213 yards would have died just as quickly at 300. Love my .44 Mags, but the .45-70 is king.

I've had 44 mag and owned various 45-70's from the 1970's until about 10-12 years ago when I sold the last one. Never had a 444 but it is just a faster 44 mag which will mean more useful range. The 45-70 is over rated. Until you get into the nuclear loads that exceed 375 recoil it won't do anything a 44 mag won't do. And if I'm dealing with that much recoil I'll take a 375 every time. There is nothing I'd hunt with a 45-70, with any load, that I wouldn't feel better with a 30-06 in my hands with heavy for caliber bullets.



And what history would that be.

It was introduced in 1873 as a military cartridge designed for killing indians. Traditional loads are about equal to 45 caliber muzzle loader rifles. Which aren't legal in most places for game bigger than deer. It was never widely used as a buffalo rifle. Mostly because most of the buffalo were dead before it was invented and 1870's loads were not up to taking game that size. Laws banning buffalo hunting were introduced 1 year after the 45-70 was introduced to protect the handful left.

The cartridge was all but dead within 20 years and lay dormant and rarely used for almost 100 years until Marlin brought it back to life in the 1970's. With colorful advertising hinting of a great history. I'd bet money the 45-70 has taken more game in the 21st century than it did in the 19th and 20th centuries combined.

The milder traditional loads are fun to shoot, but don't offer any advantage over 44 mag. Modern loads take the 45-70 to another level compared to 1870's loads, but at the expense of recoil that is out of proportion to the performance.

Marlin 45-70 18" guide gun in SS

well tuned......by me.........

There were no laws against any Bison hunting in the 1870's. Quite the opposite as at that time the Grant administration was encouraging their extermination to bring the Plains Indians to their knees. Laws protecting Bison came about in the 1884 when there were only a few hundred and they were in the Missouri Breaks and in Yellowstone.

I’ll take issue about the .45-70 recoil and effective range vs a .44 Mag. In an 9.5 pound rifle, a .375 H&H will generate about 44 ft-lbs recoil when pushing a 270g bullet to 2700fps. A lighter 8,3 pound Marlin/scope 1895 pushing a 325g FTX bullet to 2150fps generates about 32 ft-lbs recoil. A Marlin 11894 .44 Mag weighing about 7 pounds with as cope will generate about 13-1/2 ft-lbs pushing a 240g XTP to 1800fps.

At 7000 feet altitude (my standard elevation), a MPBR zero for a 6” diameter target and a range of 300 yards, the .44 Mag is down 37” with 22” drift, 1169fps and 729fpe. Same conditions, the .45-70 is down 20” with 16” drift and retains 1456fps and 1529fpe. Pick a different bullet for the .44 Mag and its numbers often get worse, not better. If we use 1500fpe as a rule of thumb for comparison, the .44 Mag is about a 120 yard elk rifle while the .45-70 reaches out to 305 yards. That’s a significant difference.

Between the .45-70 and .444 the .45-70. It just had so much more versatility.

The .45-70 and .44?

That’s seems like two completely separate rifles, you should buy one of each 😃

I have a .45-70 guide gun (first year with the horrible holes in the barrel) my wife has a 1894 Marlin in .44

Both are great guns.

45 Colt or a 45-70.

I'd also like a 357. Maybe in a 92 Trapper.

Simple, 450 Marlin...

Phil

I have to agree. The 45/70 brass is very light duty, it deforms easily. The Marlin's are quite clunky and rough and I did not feel confident with full power loads( by the book) The .450 Marlin is heavier walled and webbed and I no longer worry about these things.
Selling the GBL and acquiring a BLR was a good move for me.

Try Starline and that issue will disappear. I've run velocity up to where I didn't want to take anymore recoil and pressure was about 35.5 Kpsi.

450 Marlin brass has less capacity, so pressure is higher at a given velocity, assuming all else is equal. The .450 Marlin is a modern, high-pressure version of the .45-70, and lends itself well to a bolt-action conversion in any Short-mag rifle. That's where I like it, run it up to 50 Kpsi and you have a duplicate of the .458 American.

But not all .45-70 brass is as easy to bend as two types I've used, one is WW, the other was Remington .45-70 redrawn to .45-90. The re-drawn Remington brass was so flimsy I could bend it by chamfering/deburring. I got 300 rounds of that stuff dirt cheap and after I started loading it, I saw why..

The Starline had to be annealed to get it to seal at 21 Kpsi, or the whole case would soot up.

My Guide gun's action is not at all rough, actually quite smooth.

I've had all three, and find the .45-70 to be the most versatile.

But with barrels twisted to support heavier bullets and loaded with LBT hardcasts, the .44 mag and .444 can bring their game up a couple notches.

What hurt the .444 I had was the 1/38 twist. With a 1/20 twist and 300+ grain LBTs, it can slay giants. As it was, the 265 grain Hornady put the hurt on things pretty good.

My favorite weight in the .45-70 is 425 or so grains.