Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Single Shots 45 ACP in an Unconventional Precision Platform

Hello guys!

Just a bit of an update on a project I have underway. I thought you might like to see what I have dreamed up LOL!

I am taking a Savage Model 112, Series-J rifle that was originally chambered in .222Remington, and converting it to a 45 ACP rifle that should give me the opportunity to squeeze as much accuracy out of the 45 ACP as I can. Just to see what it is capable of.

Why? Because I enjoy shooting big, slow bullets like this, and would like to create a great 100 yard gopher/plate/rock etc. smacker!
The trajectory should be close to the 22lr, and would be more fun to see hits with a 230 grain bullet than a 40 grain bullet.

I may even try to shoot a deer or two with it sometime.


The barrel I am using is a custom job that I am still waiting for. It should be complete and on it's way in about a month +/- a week. The wait is unbelievably painful! LOL!

The barrel is going to be 20.5" long, and a full 1" bull contour.
- .451" diameter
- Stainless
- 1:16" Twist

So far I have completed the following:

- Obtained another bolt head for .308win case head size, and fitted it yesterday to the bolt.
the pin protrusion is at .053", so that is fine.
Switched the old extractor to the new bolt head, and removed the new bolt heads ejector plunger. No need to fling these cases out on the ground.

- The trigger was set to around 10-12 ounces (safely) when shooting bench rest with the .222 Remington barrel. So that will help wring out the smallest groups.
- I have set up a Bushnell Forge 2.5-15x50mm scope with Burris 30mm Signature rings.
- Installed a +.010" shell in the bottom rear ring and a -.010" shell in the front bottom ring to bias the scope alignment vertically.
- Installed a .015" Brass shim under the rear scope base to further give me scope bias for the vertical plain. This should allow me to site the rifle in at around 80 yards, and leave me nearly all the vertical adjustment of the scope available for longer shots. (100-200 yards LOL!). Small adjustments may need to be made to fine tune this bias value.
"If the developed loads are accurate enough to take advantage of this option".

I am hoping to shoot 230+ grain bullets primarily, but will try most traditional bullet types and weights in time.
I will attempt to develop some high performance loads with the Hornady 225 grain FTX bullets as well.

Note: The barrel presently on the action is still the original .222 Remington barrel. The barrel was left on for sake of the pictures.

here is the google link to my photos:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/8h75oYA36SK3KuzH9

And I thought I was looney.

Good luck with it. Maybe think about heavier bullets.

Should be a fun project. I know a guy up here who have a contender barrel made for 45 sit rim, 18” and runs a can on it all the time. It seems to be the only gun he ever shoots. Always has a smile on his face

Gil Sengel (IIRC) did a project like that with an 1891 Belgian Mauser beater. New barrel, wooden single-shot loading block, red dot sight. Dandy little plinker.

Thread it. Would make a nice suppressed rifle.

DF

I cannot put a suppressor on this rifle. I live in Canada, where the government believes that "ALL" suppressors are designed to hide the signature of a firearm to shoot people! If you have a suppressor, your automatically a murderous minded criminal by default. LOL! This country has such childish ways of governing people!

I am just thankful they haven't banned firearms yet!

Well it was a decent idea. Sorry to hear that.

Not quite that bad down here. Not yet, at least.

DF

Sounds interesting - keep us posted.

I've got a single shot 9mm Bergara (18 inch barrel with a 1 in 10 twist). I've been focussing on 147gn loads. It's a hard thing to get to shoot accurate reliably. It will typically do 2.5MOA at both 50 and 100yards. I've only shot 2 groups at 200yards and it did 2.25MOA. I have shot 1MOA groups with it at 50 and 100 but it's not he norm. I'm currently playing around with different length muzzle brakes and adjustable weights, using them as stabilisers. I've just bought a Limbsaver X-ring barrel dampener and tried it out today with the brakes. It does make a difference but there's still a ton of experimentation to do. With such a small case capacity I think the barrel stabilisers are still needed in addition to load development, but I tend to just buy off the shelf 147gn Winchester BEB because I find it hard to find the time to reload and this factory ammo shoots very good anyway.

when I was in business I converted several 98 mausers to 45 acp that used a 1911 magazines. the clients liked them and claimed that they were accurate. it was nice the bolt face was already set up for the proper case head size. I believe that you might be surprised how accurate you can make it shoot.

I am really hoping it will shoot tight groups out to at least 100.

The bolt head I had to replaceand refit a new one. The original was a .222 Remington. I wanted to save the old bolt head in case I decide to go to that bolt head size again in the future.
I also plan to get an additional .222 Remington bolt head and bore it out to the 7.62 x 39 case head dimension. Really make this rifle platform versatile.

Is there a prime barrel length for a.45 ACP rifle or carbine that promotes the best speed without friction loss? I've heard the .45ACP gets up to speed fast and doesn't really need a long barrel to get to top velocity, and a barrel that's too long will actually slow it down. Is this true or myth?.

Winchester 9mm 147gn BEB factory is advertised as 1,080fps but does 1,140fps out of my 18 inch barrel. Might start to drop off if the barrel got much longer - I'd suspect the 45ACP might have similar trend.

Did that on my Ruger 77 Mark II switch barrel. 25” Green Mtn bull barrel. I hoped for minimal muzzle report in the long 25” barrel but it was still loud enough to wear hearing protection SO I cut it to 17”. Fun to tinker when one has a reamer, a lathe, tooling, inexpensive barrel blank, etc, etc, etc.........

according to most of the research I have read, after 14" of barrel length the velocity return starts to "diminish". Thats not to say that the extra inch or two doesn't help at all.

I plan on trying some slower powders like 2400 or lil'gun to boost the performance a bit. With slightly larger powder charges of slower powders, you will get more gas production over a longer time frame, thus make better use of the extra inches of barrel for the additional acceleration over the extra distance.
My guess is that 20.5" is a little much, but I can cut it back any time I choose. Gonna be funnnnnn!

What kind of velocities, powders, and accuracy did you use/ achieve out of your project?

Although I would love to have experimented with handloads, especially heavier than ‘normal’ cast 45ACP bullets, I have been overwhelmed with my business and other projects and have not. I HAVE shot some factory ammo and surprisingly found lead bullet ammo more accurate than FMJ ball ammo.
I got 3”-4” groups at 100 yards.

Dthunter, you’re on a good track, don’t cut your barrel. The twist you have chosen will stabilize a lead bullet around 500 gr or a bit more. You don’t have to shoot that heavy of of course, when you start getting in that neighborhood with a tapered RN flat base bullet at subsonic velocity you might be amazed at the BC that results.

I want to say member Bullshooter built a .45ACP rifle, you might touch base with him.

Make an "Extra Webley".

Could you get enough [bleep] out of a 45 case to pop a 500+gr cast
bullet out the muzzle?

That can be a thing with light loaded revolver rounds,
is it less so in higher pressure smaller cartridges?
I suppose the barrel length vs gas production question
would be key.

Dunno the .45 ACP case capacity but I run 180 gr bullets out of my .30/.357 wildcat at 1050 or so without trying. Roughly the same capacity as the .300 BO. It takes 5-6 gr of powder in a case that could handle twice that.

This crowd went as far as trying 18inches then cutting down 1 inch at a time. 16-18 inch seems to give the maximum velocity in most cases. Click on the Muzzle Energy Graph link on each page for a better visual indication of the results.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto2.html


They've done a whole bunch of other pistol cartridges, and 223 too.

Got curious and did a little research. The .223 and .45 ACP are essentially identical re: case capacity. Of course the ACP will be substantially influenced by seating depth.

So, theoretically, if one loaded a 55 grain .45 bullet in the .45ACP one could realize over 3000 fps with same?

Uh, I don’t speak supersonic. Was thinking that a true looney might generate something in the neighborhood of 1,000 FPS or so with maybe 350-400 gr lead. With a given peak pressure the larger base area will move a given sectional density more faster.

But yes, in theory, maybe if one has a near fatal dose of the looney virus.

I'm picturing thin wafers of lead hurtling through space at three times the speed of sound, completely unstabilized and with no predictability as to where they'll land. Bet they'd make quite a cool sound as they do though.

[quote][/quote]I'll stick with shooting 185-230 grain projectiles from a 5" 1911, as God and John Browning intended.

Interesting in those links how some loads lose velocity at a given barrel length and then slowly pick up more again at a longer length.



I will be reloading everything I shoot, so I will be able to progressively increase each load combination until I detect/determine near maximum loads. This should indicate to me the true performance ceiling of this wonderful little case.

Everything I will be testing will be done over a lab radar chronograph, and every case will be inspected to track performance trends.

I may even ream out the chamber lead at some time to allow the bigger/longer 230 gr+ bullets to seat out further to gain a little case capacity.

My priority is accuracy first, then velocity.

With most conventional pistol powder charges, the pressures are lower (relatively speaking) and the pistol powders don't always burn completely, cleanly, or consistently. These loads normally leave the spent cases more dirty with unburnt powder fouling. This seems to create higher Standard deviation values and inconsistent gas volume/pressure yields. It isn't until the pressures are elevated a bit (which this platform will be ideally built for), and the gas volumes/pressures should tend to balance out better and give better Standard deviations, velocities, and burn a bit cleaner.

This is why I want to initially test a pile of standard powder & bullet combos, and slowly work them up to see if they get more accurate and burn cleaner like in my JR carbine.

After all that testing is complete , then I hope to expand into some "slower" powders, then slowly ramp up pressures until I encounter the near max performance of the combination.
This should give me a decent evaluation of what I can squeeze out of this little 45ACP case. After all that experimentation, what ever the best combinations of accuracy and velocity are, is what I will load volume for.

Most of us shooters know, the majority of the fun is in the testing, and then is complemented in the hunting or target shooting.

Well, ol’ John was a bit ahead of his time, no? I shot a cement truck with a 1911 one day. Just a bit over 300 meters. One shot on a bet, won a case of beer.

I’m thinking if one wants 3K FPS with the cartridge they ought to consider a 4 piece sabot with proper OD and a flechette dart for the “bullet”. They could call it the .45 Creedmoor Killer.

Lol!
I cannot imagine shooting super light bullets out of a 45ACP!
It would be loke shooting little hockey puck shaped bullets!

You could always turn it into a 460 Rowland - heavy bullets @ subsonic velocity...

In 2002 I put a Shilen 0.452" bull barrel on a 1903 Turkish Mauser.
The handloads were higher than 460 Rowland with 45acp brass, but the 15 pound rifle did not kick hard.
It is hard on plywood targets at 100 yards. I can see plywood bits flying out the back through the scope.

Wohoo! Got an email this morning, and my 45ACP barrel was mailed out to me today!

I can hardly wait to start the testing!

Now the wait for the postal service........!

Get movin’ Dude.

what kind of accuracy did you get at 100? with what bullet?

Well boys and girls, here she is!

After waiting just shy of 4 1/2 months after deciding to go ahead with the project, it is now a reality!

First range visit was a great learning tool! The only load I tested today was pretty darn good to start! I put the first 2 rounds onto a target at 25, then put another 2 on a target at 75 yards. I then took the bull by the horns and went right out to someones old target at 136 yards. Photo of the target and rifle are included in the photo link below.

So far it is really fun!
Hope you like the photos

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UPNd3zvpCzFVK9Bk7

Well, that looks like fun.

Very nice. Just think how many rounds you can shoot before barrel wear becomes a problem. Really neat concept...I like it!

That's pretty cool!

Well fellow shooters, I have an update for you!

After numerous load tests and assessments, the 45 Super rifle is fun as heck!

I have achieved some serious velocities with 185 XTP, 200 XTP, and 230 grain bullets and no significant high pressure indicators.

So far Long shot appears to be the powder of choice in my rifle.

The FULLY SUPPORTED CHAMBER and standard magnum action, 1" bull barrel, really handles this little case with absolute ease!

I have reached close to 1700 fps with 185 XTP's
VERY close to 1600 fps with 200 grain XTP's.
And I have managed to get 1450 fps with 230 grain Campro Hollow points.

I have found that at some point as the powder charges gradually go up, the groups start to open up noticeably.
Once the accuracy gets out of my expectations (2-1/2" + at 100 yds).

I simply back down to where the accuracy is best and stick with that charge.

I have never yet experienced any case failures of any kind yet. Not lose primers or excessive case head expansion.
I started with Federal large pistol, Blazer small pistol primer, and Starline 45 Super brass.

I have managed 6-7 groups that have been sub-MOA at 100, but the average seems to be around 1-3/4 to 1-1/4" at 100 yds.

I am starting to partial size the cases, just to resize the portion that contacts the bullet when seated. I will test to see if this helps with bullet bore alignment, and results in a more consistant load. We will see if it helps.

I have yet to test some 250 grain XTP bullets. If they shoot well and velocity goals are achieved, they should be the best bet to use on game if I decide to use it. This combo should come close to 45 Long colt velocities. At speeds like that, the bullet wont be driven too hard for its construction.

This rifle is going to be a riot on the gopher fields!!!

Too cool! You are really making me want one.

Today I tested some loads with the Hornady 250 grain XTP, .452 diameter bullets in the 45 Super.

So far the average velocity of my favorite load was 1295 fps! I am choosing to stop there. No need for more than that.

I also started developing some 230 Grain Hornady HAP bullet loads. I managed to get 1410 fps out of my favorite load there.

All groups were inside my maximum 1-3/4" at 100 yards. Two groups at 1.100" and 1.250"

I shot a few bullets of each top load into some 2 liter water bottles at 100 yards (2 bottles Laid length wise in tandem), using a big box of tightly packed rags as a final back stop.
I covered the box in a garbage bag to basically eliminate getting the box wet from the spraying water. It worked awesome!

I managed to recover 2 bullets. The 230 grain Hap bullet expanded to .677" diameter.( this bullets is advertised to be designed "NOT" to expand). It retained 210 grains and mushroomed back into the base of it's massive hollow point. Looks like it performed well enough. It wasn't an even mushroom though. In this case a bullet that wasn't designed to expand at typical 45 ACP velocities "DOES"! I guess at speeds around 500 fps faster, it isn't too surprising. LOL!

The 250 grain XTP bullet mushroomed, as expected, BEAUTIFULLY! It was just under .750!" That 1295 fps velocity band is perfect for this bullet design!
The velocity of this bullet was 1030 fps (down range, at the 100 yard target) I believe (my notes are down stairs).

Now I know that this little rifle should be capable to take a deer sized animal effectively inside about 125 yards with little potential problem.

I am having so much fun with this!

Sounds like great fun. Wish I were there.

They are a bit expensive but look into Lehigh defense bullets. Solid copper defense intended bullet. Anyways they offer a 120 grain 45 caliber. But interesting to see what you could push those at. Out of 45 acp pistol loading data puts them at 1450.

Stuff like this is why I finally broke down and bought a Contender carbine, which makes it as easy as whipping out the old Visa and ordering a barrel. The list of chamberings on the MGM site is full of good ideas like yours. Haven't even shot the .44 mag barrel yet, and I'm already looking at others. Got most utilitarian purposes covered, so something fun seems like the way to go.

It's threads like this that keep me on the Campfire. Keep her going!

Put a can on it and have a more-modern DeLisle carbine.

In WWII, the Brits put a .45 ACP barrel with an integral suppressor on an Enfield action, for work with the SOE and other clandestine outfits. From all accounts, it was a roaring success.

I would love to install a can, but I live in a country where we are not all that free anymore! Our country is in trouble with our present leader!
He is dragging the west down into a depression far greater than the rest of the country, and has been on a war path banning guns and anything else he can! So much evil corruption in that Lie-beral party!

The advantage with this platform is that it is considerably stronger than any lee-Enfield type action.

Easily . We killed a truckload of deer with the 250 xtp started not much faster than that.