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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,902 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,902 Likes: 1 |
I load a bunch of my 327 light for the kids and ladies to play with.
I simply use published light 32 H&R data, and even 32 S&W Long data. Just seat the bullet to the COAL shown in the manual for the smaller cartridge. Titegroup works well in this application.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2014
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Other than trying to show off pretty mushrooms, there is zero reason to analyze self defense bullets fired into sand, or to show us pictures of them. Sand has nothing to do with meat when a bullet impacts it, no matter how soft or fine it feels in your hands. It doesn't even produce a mushroom by the same mechanism. Those pictures are misleading.
Water jugs are a step better, but still not something to hang your hat on.
Last edited by Yondering; 04/08/20.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,123 |
"Ladies&gentlemen of the jury regular ammo wasn't enough No! She shot my poor downtrodden client with Megadeath nuclear black talon rip'em guts out Ammonutioyn!" That issue. I'd just use the h&r magnums. Show a case where this has ever been an issue I don’t know the court experiences on that. I remember Massad Ayoob preaching that in his courses and writings on self defensive. Not sure if he knew of such cases or was just considering the possibility. That thinking was the gospel for a time. I’ve heard it challenged more and more lately. DF
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2007
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"Ladies&gentlemen of the jury regular ammo wasn't enough No! She shot my poor downtrodden client with Megadeath nuclear black talon rip'em guts out Ammonutioyn!" That issue. I'd just use the h&r magnums. Show a case where this has ever been an issue I apologize for further derailing the OP's thread, but... Lawyers can (and do) try to make an issue out of anything that they think will help their case. But, just because it's been raised as an issue, it doesn't follow that the issue has legs. That said, there is no realistic argument that your legal jeopardy increases due to your use of handloads in self defense. I once discussed the issue with other judges, the elected sheriff, the elected prosecutor, and a couple defense attorneys, and we all reached the same conclusion: It just doesn't matter. A shooter's righteousness (or criminality) will be determined on other, more significant issues, long before anybody raises the fact that the killing round was handloaded by the shooter. If anything, there is a stronger argument against commercial ammo being used! After all, Federal, Remington, Hornady, or Whoever doesn't start mass producing a self defense round until they've done serious testing--a TON of serious testing. When they finally decide that they've created the ultimate projectile and are pushing it at the perfect speed, they offer it to America, proudly proclaiming that they have invented the perfect, purpose-built man-stopper! If you want to do maximum damage to the human body, use this round! Whereas the guy who handloads probably uses the bullet he does, because he "heard they were good" and got a discount if he bought 1000 or more. He uses the powder he does, because it's what he uses for some other gun, and he didn't have to make a special trip to the store. As for speed, he worked up to max book but really can't say why. And, how does it perform? He has no idea; he only shot them at the range to make sure they'd group acceptably and run in his gun; he has no idea what they do against human tissue. So who has the blacker heart when they walk out the door with their gun--Commercial Ammo Man or Handloader Guy? Commercial Ammo Man is carrying the perfect ammunition for killing, and Handloader Guy is carrying something he put together in his shop. If you're sitting at the defendant's table in a courtroom, it wasn't your handload that got you there. Glad that you weighed in. My point exactly handloads are a non issue, yet keeps being regurgitated on the internet Yep, that's why I posed the question "what issue?" I knew what side he was referring to - I just wanted to be entertained as to how he was going to explain it. ☺️ Just pontificating, but just how the heck could any prosecutor or investigator even tell if you shot someone with ammo that YOU hand loaded? Well, they couldn't. I've purchased bulk handloaded ammo from a couple of different manufacturers over the years. Georgia Ammo was one of them I believe. Looks no different than my own handloads or factory ammo for that matter. Also, most handloaders don't load to bump up loads to Death Star range - they load mostly for accuracy.
Last edited by Triggernosis; 04/08/20.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,902 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,902 Likes: 1 |
"Ladies&gentlemen of the jury regular ammo wasn't enough No! She shot my poor downtrodden client with Megadeath nuclear black talon rip'em guts out Ammonutioyn!" That issue. I'd just use the h&r magnums. Show a case where this has ever been an issue I apologize for further derailing the OP's thread, but... Lawyers can (and do) try to make an issue out of anything that they think will help their case. But, just because it's been raised as an issue, it doesn't follow that the issue has legs. That said, there is no realistic argument that your legal jeopardy increases due to your use of handloads in self defense. I once discussed the issue with other judges, the elected sheriff, the elected prosecutor, and a couple defense attorneys, and we all reached the same conclusion: It just doesn't matter. A shooter's righteousness (or criminality) will be determined on other, more significant issues, long before anybody raises the fact that the killing round was handloaded by the shooter. If anything, there is a stronger argument against commercial ammo being used! After all, Federal, Remington, Hornady, or Whoever doesn't start mass producing a self defense round until they've done serious testing--a TON of serious testing. When they finally decide that they've created the ultimate projectile and are pushing it at the perfect speed, they offer it to America, proudly proclaiming that they have invented the perfect, purpose-built man-stopper! If you want to do maximum damage to the human body, use this round! Whereas the guy who handloads probably uses the bullet he does, because he "heard they were good" and got a discount if he bought 1000 or more. He uses the powder he does, because it's what he uses for some other gun, and he didn't have to make a special trip to the store. As for speed, he worked up to max book but really can't say why. And, how does it perform? He has no idea; he only shot them at the range to make sure they'd group acceptably and run in his gun; he has no idea what they do against human tissue. So who has the blacker heart when they walk out the door with their gun--Commercial Ammo Man or Handloader Guy? Commercial Ammo Man is carrying the perfect ammunition for killing, and Handloader Guy is carrying something he put together in his shop. If you're sitting at the defendant's table in a courtroom, it wasn't your handload that got you there. Glad that you weighed in. My point exactly handloads are a non issue, yet keeps being regurgitated on the internet My favorite LGS and gunsmith nearly became my least favorite last fall when he attempted to school me on this matter. He had tuned my SP 101 in 327 Fed and changed the hammer spring. When we went to test fire my ammo, it was loaded with 120 gr home made powder coated cast flat points over a maximum charge of H110. He did not like shooting them, and he heartily recommended I NEVER carry them where self defense might be a possibility. Of course home cast and powder coated bullets would be pretty hard to pass off as a factory load. But if I ever need to use a gun for defensive purposes, the round in the chamber will be my least concern, as long as it is capable of stopping the lethal threat to my family and or self.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,198
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2005
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While I don't recall the involved officer's name Mas did write about how he used the Speer 200 grain flying ashtray @965 fps in a onduty shooting and how lucky he was that it was not a huge issue but do we really want to feed lawyers anything? I'm debating between the Ruger sp 3"or 4" incher if the 3 had adjustable sights I'd just get that.
Bangflop! another skinning job due to .260 and proper shot placement.
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Joined: Nov 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,456 Likes: 2 |
I've spent quite a bit of time with .32 mag and .327. I found the .327 pretty unpleasant .. like a rimmed .30 Carbine in a handgun. Hell of a lot of muzzle blast and noise. I like warmer .32 mag loads a lot better than the .327 loads I've tried. I also shook a Single Six .32 mag to death with "Skeeter Skelton Memorial" handloads.
I got to where I just didn't like the .327 no matter how good it looked on paper. I wouldn't do it again.
The .32 mag .. toward the end of my .32 mag shooting, I simplified. Brass brand didn't matter, just keep it separated by brand. Fed is good, Starline is good. Small pistol primers .. I prefer Fed 100 but used WSPs when that's what I had available. Powder charge ... 10 grains of Win 296 or H110. Bullet .. whatever bullet was handy, 85 grain XTP, 90 grain JHC, 100 grain XTP or Speer HP, or 98 grain RCBS SWC.
You might want a powder with a little less flash. Seems like years ago we used 7 grains of AA #7 rather than 10 grains of 296/H110. It's a little over max for the .32 mag but there were no problems and in a gun meant for .327, it's "way-fine."
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Here be dragons ...
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,798 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,798 Likes: 1 |
Another issue I seen raised in print is about wide extreme velocity spreads with .327 loads. Even the factories have been having issues. Brian Pearce has mentioned this a time or two. Not a factor for defense, but might affect accuray for sporting use. The old H&R might be better balanced.
Another quirk with the .327 seems to be that 5 1/2" barrels often give higher velocities than 7 1/2".
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
Other than trying to show off pretty mushrooms, there is zero reason to analyze self defense bullets fired into sand, or to show us pictures of them. Sand has nothing to do with meat when a bullet impacts it, no matter how soft or fine it feels in your hands. It doesn't even produce a mushroom by the same mechanism. Those pictures are misleading.
Water jugs are a step better, but still not something to hang your hat on. The pictures are not misleading at all. They show what happened when those specific loads were fired into a bucket of sand. I don't have any flesh and bone to fire them into and no volunteers. As expected, the amount of deformation in sand was very dependent on impact velocity. Although the 32 H&R load ***might*** expand in flesh, the results of this test give me much more confidence the other two loads will do so. Sand = flesh? No. Do I care? Nope.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 04/10/20. Reason: replace comma with period
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,322
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,322 |
While I don't recall the involved officer's name Mas did write about how he used the Speer 200 grain flying ashtray @965 fps in a onduty shooting and how lucky he was that it was not a huge issue but do we really want to feed lawyers anything? If you empty the gun on a perp, there ain't no way in hell anyone could tell whether they were handloaded or not, even with mixed headstanp brass.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
While I don't recall the involved officer's name Mas did write about how he used the Speer 200 grain flying ashtray @965 fps in a onduty shooting and how lucky he was that it was not a huge issue but do we really want to feed lawyers anything? If you empty the gun on a perp, there ain't no way in hell anyone could tell whether they were handloaded or not, even with mixed headstanp brass. Don't know what your LE experience is but the few forensic firearms examiners I have known all would... Allen Jones who was the editor of the SPEER RELOADING MANUAL up till #13 was with the SW Institute for Forensic Science in Dallas back in the 1970s and 80s...he would easily know the difference...
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
While I don't recall the involved officer's name Mas did write about how he used the Speer 200 grain flying ashtray @965 fps in a onduty shooting and how lucky he was that it was not a huge issue but do we really want to feed lawyers anything? If you empty the gun on a perp, there ain't no way in hell anyone could tell whether they were handloaded or not, even with mixed headstanp brass. I wouldn't bet on that assumption. First thing that will happen is someone is going to inspect your brass. Even if you use brass from a major manufacturer, do the primers match factory ammo? Do any recovered bullets match the factory loads? Do you have a stash of matching factory loads at your house, with less than full boxes, or just handloads and the equipment needed to make them? If they really wanted to get into it they could check spectrographic results for the powder residue in the brass. Lots of ways to come to a reasonable conclusion handloads were used. That said, the possible argument by the prosecution that you handloaded the meanest, deadliest bullet you could find is no different than them making the same argument regarding purchased ammo - you bought the meanest, deadliest ammo you could find. I have defensive handloads for most of my carry and home/camp defense guns. That said, The ,380, 9mm Luger, .40 S&W and .45ACP get Barnes TAC-XPD, a bullet I don't reload. Don't reload for the .25ACP, either. hat and the .38SPL get Hornady FTX ammo, another bullet I don't reload for. The 12g gets factory 00 loads. I have . The .357 Mag and .44 Mag are all handloads and the AR magazines (5.56, .300BLK and .308W) are all loaded with handloads. These guns are all kept locked up. If I shoot someone with any of these it is likely a home or camp invasion situation. My question is, what IDIOT would purchase or build ammo they thought would be the LEAST EFFECTIVE in a defensive and possibly life/death situation?
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,999 |
The good thing about the .327 Federal chamber, like the OP noted in his post, is that you can shoot the .32 H&R in it along with the .32 S&W rounds. Supposedly the .32 auto has enough rim to also work but I never tried it in my Ruger Single Seven. When my 16-4 gets back from being rechambered to .327 Magnum I might give the .32 Auto a shot
Last edited by pacecars; 04/10/20.
Guns don't kill people, it's mostly the bullets
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 656
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 656 |
The good thing about the .327 Federal chamber, like the OP noted in his post, is that you can shoot the .32 H&R in it along with the .32 S&W rounds. Supposedly the .32 auto has enough rim to also work but I never tried it in my Ruger Single Seven. When my 16-4 gets back from being rechambered to .327 Magnum I might kive the >32 Auto a shot The 32 acp does work in a single seven and is surprisingly accurate. It also seemed to have slightly more recoil and definitely more report than 32 s&w longs.
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 78
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 78 |
Yes, .32 ACP normally has higher muzzle energy.
.32 ACP rounds run 60-73 gr at 905-1050 fps for ~130 ft-lbs normal, more for "defense" loads. Buffalo Bore makes a "+P" round with a 75gr flat-nose lead bullet, fired at 1150fps, for a muzzle energy of 220 ft-lbs).
.32 S&W bullet weights are heavier (98-115 gr), and muzzle velocities lower (680-900 fps), for between 105 and 139 ft-lbs, with some (like two Buffalo Bore offerings) running 163-180 ft-lbs).
Last edited by Blackbat242; 04/11/20.
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