Yep, if it is a hardened surface then you could and most likely will create a problem with too much heat. Propane or electric heat not much of a chance. The solder for low temps does not have much strength however.
That is some really bad advice for someone new to soldering, and who is working on a heat treated part. Propane torches absolutely can and do put out enough heat to damage steel temper, and a lot more than that.
Bcraig, it would be wise to avoid soldering on either the hammer or sear, even if your JB weld part doesn't work. To your question of how much heat is too much - on bare steel, as soon as you start seeing it change colors (yellow -> brown -> blue) you're in the range where it can affect temper. Normal tempering temps are between the pale yellow and solid blue color stages, depending on the steel and how hard the manufacturer wanted it to be. With harder surfaces like you're working with, the temper was probably done at lower temps, in the yellow->brown range. You will exceed that if you try to solder to it.
The Main question is the 430 Degree Melt Temp of the Solder I have going to require an amount of heat to start the steel to start changing colors ? Or make the question easier,at what Temp would the steel start to change colors?
If the Piece ever fell off and I decide to solder it that is.
Actually a good question. I'm not a 'smith but I prefer as few pieces as necessary so I'd think about reshaping parts for a proper engagement. But have tricked out Mauser triggers as described by Dunlap. So long as it's safe and reliable and can't disassemble itself to cause an unsafe condition.
I would think that the Modification would be safe as it is just attached to the outside of the hammer and below the full cock notch to limit sear engagement,I would think that the worse thing that could happen is that if it fell off I would be right back where I started from with a trigger that has a little creep to it.
It would depend on the pressure on the piece soldered. Lead is meant for electronics and piping. No real pressure on the soldered joint. Try the low temp and see if it works.
I would not think that there would be any real pressure on the piece with what it is designed to do ,would you ?
Look at the tempering charts for common hardenablr steel. If you're below 450F nothing happens. And gun parts are commonly tempered at a substantially higher temperature to avoid embrittlement problems. Ever see the edge of an overhard sear crumble? (A lot of PSI can develop on a sharp edge.) The big problem particularly with beginners (and open flames) is controlling the heat. Oh so easy to let the temperature get way higher than you want,
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Look at the tempering charts for common hardenablr steel. If you're below 450F nothing happens. And gun parts are commonly tempered at a substantially higher temperature to avoid embrittlement problems. Ever see the edge of an overhard sear crumble? (A lot of PSI can develop on a sharp edge.) The big problem particularly with beginners (and open flames) is controlling the heat. Oh so easy to let the temperature get way higher than you want,
More like ~375 F, which is a pale straw color. Sear surfaces are kept harder than other parts, and are tempered at lower temperatures.
The claim that it's not likely to be a problem with a propane torch is completely bogus.
Yep, if it is a hardened surface then you could and most likely will create a problem with too much heat. Propane or electric heat not much of a chance. The solder for low temps does not have much strength however.
That is some really bad advice for someone new to soldering, and who is working on a heat treated part. Propane torches absolutely can and do put out enough heat to damage steel temper, and a lot more than that.
Bcraig, it would be wise to avoid soldering on either the hammer or sear, even if your JB weld part doesn't work. To your question of how much heat is too much - on bare steel, as soon as you start seeing it change colors (yellow -> brown -> blue) you're in the range where it can affect temper. Normal tempering temps are between the pale yellow and solid blue color stages, depending on the steel and how hard the manufacturer wanted it to be. With harder surfaces like you're working with, the temper was probably done at lower temps, in the yellow->brown range. You will exceed that if you try to solder to it.
The Main question is the 430 Degree Melt Temp of the Solder I have going to require an amount of heat to start the steel to start changing colors ? Or make the question easier,at what Temp would the steel start to change colors?
If the Piece ever fell off and I decide to solder it that is.
Yes, 430 F is into tempering range. That is the minimum melting point though - can you really control the temp that closely? I guarantee that (especially as a beginner) you're going to see temps of 500+ when you try to solder that. That puts you squarely into the middle range of tempering temps, and the sharp edges where it really matters (the sear surface) will get considerably hotter in an instant if exposed to the flame.
Yep, if it is a hardened surface then you could and most likely will create a problem with too much heat. Propane or electric heat not much of a chance. The solder for low temps does not have much strength however.
That is some really bad advice for someone new to soldering, and who is working on a heat treated part. Propane torches absolutely can and do put out enough heat to damage steel temper, and a lot more than that.
Bcraig, it would be wise to avoid soldering on either the hammer or sear, even if your JB weld part doesn't work. To your question of how much heat is too much - on bare steel, as soon as you start seeing it change colors (yellow -> brown -> blue) you're in the range where it can affect temper. Normal tempering temps are between the pale yellow and solid blue color stages, depending on the steel and how hard the manufacturer wanted it to be. With harder surfaces like you're working with, the temper was probably done at lower temps, in the yellow->brown range. You will exceed that if you try to solder to it.
The Main question is the 430 Degree Melt Temp of the Solder I have going to require an amount of heat to start the steel to start changing colors ? Or make the question easier,at what Temp would the steel start to change colors?
If the Piece ever fell off and I decide to solder it that is.
Yes, 430 F is into tempering range. That is the minimum melting point though - can you really control the temp that closely? I guarantee that (especially as a beginner) you're going to see temps of 500+ when you try to solder that. That puts you squarely into the middle range of tempering temps, and the sharp edges where it really matters (the sear surface) will get considerably hotter in an instant if exposed to the flame.
Yes I see what you mean Maybe I would be better off to just stone the sear if the JB Weld does not hold ?
If the steel starts changing colors (temper colors) it's way hotter than you want for soft soldering.
That is incorrect.
You already said you're not a gunsmith, but do you do any metal work and heat treating? I do, and am not guessing.
Yes, I do flame heat treat steel from time to time. Lessee, Noticeable color change happens around 440F depending on light and eyes.More commonly you're looking for around spring temper, blue, around 850F.
Now eutectic tin/lead solder with a bit of silver added (helps the flow) melts at 370F. My favorite alloy for electronics and low strength applications. Heat the joint up to 440F and you'll burn the usual flux Brownell's Hi Force 44 flows at 475F so you have more latitude before your flux burns. But there is absolutely no point in heating past the flow temperature.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
If the steel starts changing colors (temper colors) it's way hotter than you want for soft soldering.
That is incorrect.
You already said you're not a gunsmith, but do you do any metal work and heat treating? I do, and am not guessing.
Yes, I do flame heat treat steel from time to time. Lessee, Noticeable color change happens around 440F depending on light and eyes.More commonly you're looking for around spring temper, blue, around 850F.
Now eutectic tin/lead solder with a bit of silver added (helps the flow) melts at 370F. My favorite alloy for electronics and low strength applications. Heat the joint up to 440F and you'll burn the usual flux Brownell's Hi Force 44 flows at 475F so you have more latitude before your flux burns. But there is absolutely no point in heating past the flow temperature.
Your numbers for steel colors seem to be way off. The charts do vary a little, most say ~390F for light straw color although the first image below (straight from Wiki) reflects what I see usually. 850F is definitely not blue, that's a dull grey for sure. The second image is another common chart that seems to be reasonably accurate in my experience.
I agree that there's no advantage to heating past the solder flow temperature, but you're mistaken if you think some areas of the part don't inadvertently get hotter than that, especially sharp corners like the sear surfaces. For someone new to soldering that is even more true; it takes a fair amount of practice and skill to hold the part at just the right temp without getting some of it too hot.
My reference materials are in the basement and I am not so I grabbed a chart like yours for convenience. If you can consistently see the light yellows you have better eyes than I do. I usually don;t see a change until over 400 and then colors are changing quickly even with indirect heating.And blue has always been spring temper though there is an area of "blue embrittlement" to avoid. But I can tell you from experience that with typical soft solder fluxes you start having problems getting them to work right when you get into the yellows. For smaller parts I prefer my big soldering gun or indirect heating. It's too hard to control the heat with a flame. Even with more massive parts you have to be careful and keep the flame moving. That's with soft solder. In that respect brazing is easier. But note, even Dunlop admitted he couldn't control heat carefully enough to silver solder a front sight without scaling an unprotected bore.
So I use the solder to test the temperature while heating carefully and stop when the solder flows well enough to make a nice fillet. That's all you really need to know besides cleanliness and choosing the right flux. The rest is practice. (You know this but maybe someone reading this doesn't.)
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
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