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I'm not sure what you mean in regards to beat to death, recoil, etc. Sorry. His point (and I guess mine) is that there is really not much difference between the two to justify the expense of re-outfitting and entire Agency, PD, etc on what are ostensibly identical weapons ( I buy ammo in large quantities for the company I work (9mm) and I have priced 40s and it's pretty close. I read the link BTW, very well done and it does make sense. I can't speak for every municipality in the country but I have never heard of any department or agency switching just for the sake of switching. It's usually centered around new contracts and the service life of existing firearms nearing expiration.
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
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What's wrong with his shooting? he has a boatload of awards and professional and military qualifications.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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What's wrong with his shooting? he has a boatload of awards and professional and military qualifications. Nothing really. But if you're going to compare a 9 to a 40 in an attempt to add value to the conversation it should all be on a timer with a heavy leaning toward splits, first round to last, A-zone only. Stuff like that. Slow fire with a stopwatch doesn't tell us much. Matter of fact. It doesn't tell us anything.
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Jorge,
My constructive thought is to read the FBI report and their conclusion instead of watching Paul the bag of oranges shooter guy.
Could you take Paul Harrell in a bare knuckle fight? I don't know. I'll bet on you...............just not too much, though.  MM
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
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I'll bet on you...............just not too much, though. MM If I'm not too drunk I usually do OK. Usually.
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Member
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Stray, it was the FNS 40 cal, they had a mess of issues with them. Such as, front sights detaching from the slide, accidental discharges (holster related), excessive slide temps during testing( against of the weapons) finish flaking off. functioning was poor, and a high incidence of internal parts breakage. To the tune of 1.4 million $. Last and the worst issue. One of their firearms instructors and head of the testing staff was a competitive shooter factory sponsored by who............................................................................................................. FN Herstal of course!!! What a cluster!!!!. Now they are carrying glock 17, 9mms. 147gr. go figure, Outside of the skewed test results where FN was the winner????. A reevaluation of the testing data revealed that glock had actually come out as the winner. 2 years worth of headaches and money wasted. All because of one guy! Thanks, cs2blue, for the reply. Back in the day, when I was an agent with Customs-I guess they call it legacy Customs now since it was before DHS--one guy in the organization specced out the CS-1 revolver. For agents, it was a S&W 686 with a 3" barrel and a round butt for plainclothes carry, the then-relatively new L frame for longevity, tighter extractor/ratchet tolerances for supposed less end-play, and a tighter barrel/cylinder gap. Inspectors got the 4" barrel. On paper, it supposedly the perfect gun; in reality, it bound up with the slightest bit of unburned powder under the extractor, or crud between the barrel and cylinder, the bigger cylinder wore a hole in your hip on long surveillances in a car, and it weighed a ton. Because of one guy. Good times.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Anyone who has shot steel plates with a 9mm using 115 grain or 45 ACP in 230 ball knows there is a tangible, observable, difference. The 45 is throwing 100% more mass per shot, and it shows.
Lee is correct about this.
I usually shot plates about once a week. That’s before the virus scare. But you also need to factor in ammo.
Winchester white box is a weak sister. Speer Lawman on the other hand is snappy. Hasbeen
hasbeen
(Better a has been than a never was!)
NRA Patron member
Try to live your life where the preacher doesn't have to lie at your funeral
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,642 Likes: 4 |
What's wrong with his shooting? he has a boatload of awards and professional and military qualifications. Nothing really. But if you're going to compare a 9 to a 40 in an attempt to add value to the conversation it should all be on a timer with a heavy leaning toward splits, first round to last, A-zone only. Stuff like that. Slow fire with a stopwatch doesn't tell us much. Matter of fact. It doesn't tell us anything. Got it. Again, thank you. Any thoughts on the 38 Super? Also what bullet do you recommend for a 9mm?...
Last edited by jorgeI; 05/02/20.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Does the fact that a bullet can penetrate a 1/8 steel plate have any relevance when shooting at people? Yes, there is that one in a thousand chance of the bad guy hiding behind steel, but other than that... However I feel a bullet should be able to penetrate both sides of an empty 55 gallon steel drum and do damage on the far side. Rifles do that reliably. Which by the way is a big sticking point of the FBI tactics the day of the shooting. Why did this special stakeout squad not use long guns for the takedown? The FBI certainly had access to long guns, shotguns and probably the MP5's that were popular at the time. The FBI knew these guys were violent, had murdered multiple people and used a rifle in the commission of their crimes. Ultimately a shotgun was deployed but almost too little too late. I don't have my notes right here but besides the two shotguns at the scene (one in the back of Supervisor Gordon McNeil's vehicle and the one Ed Mirales used in the fight) there were 2-3 more cars with agents cruising South Dixie Highway. I believe there was an M16 in one and a MP5 in another...but they were at the ends of the patrol zone when the vehicle was spotted and didn't get to the scene till the end of the fight... I am not sure if there any other shotguns in the other cars. The distances involved in the shooting: McNeil: 8' Dove, Grogan and Hanlon: 35-40' Mirales: Shotgun: 35' Handgun 15'-2' Risner and Oratia: 35 yards They had more than enough firepower out there.... Bob ps...and if Platt had a Mini30 instead of a Mini14 there would be three more dead agents...McNeil, Mirales and Hanlon...
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
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What's wrong with his shooting? he has a boatload of awards and professional and military qualifications. Nothing really. But if you're going to compare a 9 to a 40 in an attempt to add value to the conversation it should all be on a timer with a heavy leaning toward splits, first round to last, A-zone only. Stuff like that. Slow fire with a stopwatch doesn't tell us much. Matter of fact. It doesn't tell us anything. Got it. Again, thank you. Any thoughts on the 38 Super? Also what bullet do you recommend for a 9mm?... No experience with the .38 Super. Anything reputable that's heavy for caliber. 147ish preferred. For training, whatever's cheap.
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,642 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,642 Likes: 4 |
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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jorge... .38 Super...have been carrying one daily for 40 years... If you go with Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Georgia Arms or one of the smaller companies, they all make Super ammo that is right up there with the 357 SIG.
90-100 grain: 1550
115 grain: 1450
125 grain: 1350
Super from the big three is nothing more than 9mm +P...if that.
I use the Underwood Xtreme Defender 90 grain running 1560 from a Commander and 1650 from a 5"...
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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Campfire Tracker
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I have a good stash of Super 147s from Georgia Arms that runs 1250. I haven’t yet gone over to the dark side to try the 90s but I’m going to soon. I have an almost virginal Super on the way so I need to try some new recipes.
Last edited by OldRooster; 05/02/20.
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Stray, it was the FNS 40 cal, they had a mess of issues with them. Such as, front sights detaching from the slide, accidental discharges (holster related), excessive slide temps during testing( against of the weapons) finish flaking off. functioning was poor, and a high incidence of internal parts breakage. To the tune of 1.4 million $. Last and the worst issue. One of their firearms instructors and head of the testing staff was a competitive shooter factory sponsored by who............................................................................................................. FN Herstal of course!!! What a cluster!!!!. Now they are carrying glock 17, 9mms. 147gr. go figure, Outside of the skewed test results where FN was the winner????. A reevaluation of the testing data revealed that glock had actually come out as the winner. 2 years worth of headaches and money wasted. All because of one guy! Thanks, cs2blue, for the reply. Back in the day, when I was an agent with Customs-I guess they call it legacy Customs now since it was before DHS--one guy in the organization specced out the CS-1 revolver. For agents, it was a S&W 686 with a 3" barrel and a round butt for plainclothes carry, the then-relatively new L frame for longevity, tighter extractor/ratchet tolerances for supposed less end-play, and a tighter barrel/cylinder gap. Inspectors got the 4" barrel. On paper, it supposedly the perfect gun; in reality, it bound up with the slightest bit of unburned powder under the extractor, or crud between the barrel and cylinder, the bigger cylinder wore a hole in your hip on long surveillances in a car, and it weighed a ton. Because of one guy. Good times. I guess things don't change much, in the 1930's the Border Patrol got Colt New Service revolvers with 4" barrels in,get this, 38 special caliber, because of 1 guy, Col Charles Askins. A huge New Service, in 38 special. They could have gotten Colt Official Police revolvers if they wanted the 38 special. Charlie Askins didn't like the issue Colt 1917's in 45 ACP because they had to use half moon clips, things that speed up revolver reloading.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,985 Likes: 7 |
jorge... .38 Super...have been carrying one daily for 40 years... If you go with Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Georgia Arms or one of the smaller companies, they all make Super ammo that is right up there with the 357 SIG.
90-100 grain: 1550
115 grain: 1450
125 grain: 1350
Super from the big three is nothing more than 9mm +P...if that.
I use the Underwood Xtreme Defender 90 grain running 1560 from a Commander and 1650 from a 5"...
Bob The Underwood 125 grain in 357 is 1475 FPS
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
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Anything reputable that's heavy for caliber. 147ish preferred.
An accuracy test at slow fire is rather meaningless............most mid-range cartridges are all pretty comparable...............it's accuracy (ability to hit the target) at speed that is at issue. That Harrell used 115 gr HP's for a penetration test, regardless of the test medium, skews the results before the shooting commences; should have at least used 124, either +P or not, & also with a premium bullet. The Federal 115 HP used for his test is not a premium bullet compared to the 135 CD or HST's or Gold Dots. That test as it stands really doesn't provide enough data to conclude that the 40 is a better fighting gun for most people, (meaning number of effective hits) especially with the ammo chosen, except for the CD in both cases...........it does tend to show some difference between a standard bullet (albeit it in a light weight) to a more premium bullet in the same cartridge. MM
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The 357 SIG is always going to run hotter than a Super simply because it holds more powder... Most companies make a 357/125 running 1350 out of a 4.25" barrel... It takes a 5" barrel for a Super to equal that.
But at least with the smaller companies the Super is loaded to its full potential instead of being just a watered down 9mm...
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,040
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Jorge,
I don't have any experience with the 38 Super, but in 9mm I use on of the premium 124gr+p hollow points, Federal HST, Speer Gold Dots, Remington Golden Sabre Bonded or Black Belt, Winchester PDX, Hornady American Gunner XTP or the Hornady Critical Duty 135gr +p. To keep it simple, you said that you use a Glock 31 in 357 Sig, whatever 124gr/125gr load you are using in the 357 Sig, use that companies 9mm 124gr+p offering with the same bullet technology, ie Gold Dot & Gold Dot or HST & HST etc.
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Posts: 42,642 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,642 Likes: 4 |
RJ: I'm familiar with the 38 Super although I don't own one. I was just asking him in particular for his opinion. And thanks all for the recommendations on 9mm ammo use. I don't think I'm buying anytime soon, so I'll have to make do with my Hi-Power 
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,947 Likes: 54
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,947 Likes: 54 |
Does the fact that a bullet can penetrate a 1/8 steel plate have any relevance when shooting at people? Yes, there is that one in a thousand chance of the bad guy hiding behind steel, but other than that... However I feel a bullet should be able to penetrate both sides of an empty 55 gallon steel drum and do damage on the far side. Rifles do that reliably. Which by the way is a big sticking point of the FBI tactics the day of the shooting. Why did this special stakeout squad not use long guns for the takedown? The FBI certainly had access to long guns, shotguns and probably the MP5's that were popular at the time. The FBI knew these guys were violent, had murdered multiple people and used a rifle in the commission of their crimes. Ultimately a shotgun was deployed but almost too little too late. I don't have my notes right here but besides the two shotguns at the scene (one in the back of Supervisor Gordon McNeil's vehicle and the one Ed Mirales used in the fight) there were 2-3 more cars with agents cruising South Dixie Highway. I believe there was an M16 in one and a MP5 in another...but they were at the ends of the patrol zone when the vehicle was spotted and didn't get to the scene till the end of the fight... I am not sure if there any other shotguns in the other cars. The distances involved in the shooting: McNeil: 8' Dove, Grogan and Hanlon: 35-40' Mirales: Shotgun: 35' Handgun 15'-2' Risner and Oratia: 35 yards They had more than enough firepower out there.... Bob. Good points. Bad marksmanship has to be blamed for a lot of it.
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