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Is there any difference in straight penetration between various calibers?Of course we would be comparing bullets of similar design and sectional density.
The reason I ask is because I feel like I need a medium bore to hunt moose and elk with. My feeling is, when confronted by heavy bone and less desirable angles, a heavy bullet will drive straighter.
On the other hand, I haven’t really been able to verify this. I have lost an elk early in my hunting career by taking a quartering on shot with a 7mm 160 gr bullet. The bullet deflected catching only one lung. I’ve since changed to a bigger caliber for moose and elk with premium bullets ( triple shock)
Now that I’m getting older, I just don’t shoot the larger caliber as well anymore. Just wondering if I can get by with smaller. I feel that although there is not as much weight driving in the straight line, the smaller caliber would not have as much bone to displace and keep going in the straight line.
I just don’t know for sure.
Last edited by akaSawDoctor; 05/03/20.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Is there any difference in straight penetration between various calibers?Of course we would be comparing bullets of similar design and sectional density.
The reason I ask is because I feel like I need a medium bore to hunt moose and elk with. My feeling is, when confronted by heavy bone and less desirable angles, a heavy bullet will drive straighter.
On the other hand, I haven’t really been able to verify this. I have lost an elk early in my hunting career by taking a quartering on shot with a 7mm 160 gr bullet. The bullet deflected catching only one lung. I’ve since changed to a bigger caliber for moose and elk with premium bullets ( triple shock)
Now that I’m getting older, I just don’t shoot the larger caliber as well anymore. Just wondering if I can get by with smaller. I feel that although there is not as much weight driving in the straight line, the smaller caliber would not have as much bone to displace and keep going in the straight line.
I just don’t know for sure. Just think to yourself 30-06 with 200 or 220 gr partition and thank me later..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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My experience is the bullet matters more than the caliber. Have seen some 7mm 160-grain bullets penetrate big animals straight even after hitting bone. In fact, have seen much lighter bullets penetrate elk straight with angling shots that hit bone.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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My experience is the bullet matters more than the caliber. Have seen some 7mm 160-grain bullets penetrate big animals straight even after hitting bone. In fact, have seen much lighter bullets penetrate elk straight with angling shots that hit bone. Without a doubt. akaSawDoctor, SD is a meaningless number, seen too many lower SD bullets outpenetrate higher SD bullets. Bullet construction is much more important
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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One of the old respected writers, wish I could remember the author and magazine , years ago did a bullet deflection test involving various calibers and bullet weights shooting into angled sheets of 1/4" plywood with targets spaced behind to provide a deflection track. His conclusion was the so called brush busters of yesteryear were nothing of the sort. Stuff tending to smaller caliber, higher velocity tracked noticeably straighter after the initial penetration of the angled sheet of plywood. Unfortunately, nobody paid much attention, and you still see references to brush cartridges. Most of us, if asked, would favor mass and momentum for minimum deflection...but in his test that didn't prove out. But, plywood and meat are two totally different mediums, but I always thought some testing, if a little flawed, is better than no testing.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Basic physics! Assuming that all things except the weight are equal (and assuming adequate bullet stabilization)......the bullet of greater mass, will resist direction change more so than the lighter bullet! memtb
Last edited by memtb; 05/04/20.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Basic physics! Assuming that all things except the weight are equal (and assuming adequate bullet stabilization)......the bullet of greater mass, will resist direction change more so than the lighter bullet! memtb Yep. Gun folks tend to under appreciate the value of momentum. If you want to break stuff, momentum matters.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
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I don't have enough education to argue intelligently but...One has to wonder if gyroscopic action on the projectile of the higher rpm, smaller caliber, higher velocity is a factor? You make a good point, but in most ballistic formulae, mass is expressed as weight, is it not?
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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But....The javelin effect from a longer bullet always helps. All the Barnes X's have generated reputations all others envy which is why the X bullet homogeneous concept is copied.
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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Seems to me bullet deformation is also going to play an important role in deflection, too. The more distorted the nose of the bullet, the greater the forces pushing it off the side becomes.
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Seems to me bullet deformation is also going to play an important role in deflection, too. The more distorted the nose of the bullet, the greater the forces pushing it off the side becomes. The symmetry of the deformation is one big factor that affects how straight the bullet penetrates.
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Basic physics! Assuming that all things except the weight are equal (and assuming adequate bullet stabilization)......the bullet of greater mass, will resist direction change more so than the lighter bullet! memtb Yep. Gun folks tend to under appreciate the value of momentum. If you want to break stuff, momentum matters. Twist rate also effects straight line penetration
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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On the other hand, I haven’t really been able to verify this. I have lost an elk early in my hunting career by taking a quartering on shot with a 7mm 160 gr bullet. The bullet deflected catching only one lung. I’ve since changed to a bigger caliber for moose and elk with premium bullets ( triple shock) If you lost the elk, how do you know you got a lung at all? The deepest and straightest penetration I've experienced has been 100gn TSX from my 257Wby. It out-penetrates 200gn TSX via 300Win Mag and 140gn TSX via 270Win. I've shot a bunch of deer with all three and at least one elk with each the 257 and 270, and a dozen elk w/the 300Win.
I can walk on water.......................but I do stagger a bit on alcohol.
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Seems to me bullet deformation is also going to play an important role in deflection, too. The more distorted the nose of the bullet, the greater the forces pushing it off the side becomes. Shinbone, This is definitely true, as is John's mention of the "javelin" shape of expanded monolithics--though the phenomenon is not limited to monos. The longer the shank of an expanded bullet, the more it tends to penetrate in a straight line. There's an excellent explanation of this in the A-Square reloading manual, ANY SHOT YOU WANT, published in 1996. It uses the principles of physics, and several illustrations and photos of bullets. One of the more telling quotes: "Conservation of Angular Momentum is key to the performance of a soft point bullet, If the petals expand too far, it will reduce the the rotational velocity, and the bullet follows a wildly erratic path in the animal." Which is why A-Square designed its Dead Tough softpoint to expand a relatively small amount, much like monolithics, "for high weight retention AND retention of its spin and its straight flight path."
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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On the other hand, I haven’t really been able to verify this. I have lost an elk early in my hunting career by taking a quartering on shot with a 7mm 160 gr bullet. The bullet deflected catching only one lung. I’ve since changed to a bigger caliber for moose and elk with premium bullets ( triple shock) If you lost the elk, how do you know you got a lung at all? The deepest and straightest penetration I've experienced has been 100gn TSX from my 257Wby. It out-penetrates 200gn TSX via 300Win Mag and 140gn TSX via 270Win. I've shot a bunch of deer with all three and at least one elk with each the 257 and 270, and a dozen elk w/the 300Win. I tracked it that evening but never found it until the next morning about a 1/2 mile from where it was shot. I was by myself in the dark and should have continued the pursuit but was young and not as experienced in the woods as I am now. Honestly I got the heeby jeebies and gave up too easily. Good feedback btw. Lots to consider
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Basic physics...humm. I respectfully disagree regarding the straight line penetration of bullets that have the most remaining shank. If that conclusion is correct then a solid would be the best of all and there are many examples of solids veering off of a straight line.
Likewise, there are many examples of hard cast .44 magnum handgun loads penetrating both deeply and in a straight line. Those bullets are heavy relative to their length and are wide compared to to their length as well.
Consider a bicycle wheel. The faster it spins the more likely it is to maintain its upright position because of the force vector extending at a right angle thru the center of the hub. It is called centripetal force.
I am convinced an expanded bullet that is spinning more rapidly and has its mass more away from its center will maintain its course. Bullets are not javelins or boats; those “common sense” analogies don’t hold up.
Last edited by RinB; 05/04/20.
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Gyroscopic stability has zero to do with what happens in the terminal phase. That metric is set forth in context of flight thru air which has very low density. When the bullet strikes flesh/bone the density is much higher and the overturning moments are immense. Bullet form is far more important in my experience. Round noses serve a purpose, as do those bullets with little if any exposed lead on the nose. Case in point: .22 CB Short Some light reading if interested. http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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DD’s post supports my observations. The 22 lead bullet is pretty dense for its diameter and it is quite short. When spinning it tends to keep its nose straight on and resists alteration of its path.
Last edited by RinB; 05/04/20.
“Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”. Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Posted by Brad.
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I used quite a few 7mm Barnes Xs the 175 and 120 grain. Difficult to tell as both did very well and most exited but it seemed the 175 grain bullet did penetrate on a more straight line path. Although the nose cavity was identical the 120s had a greater chance of shedding a petal and if it was not all of the petals then the imbalance appeared to cause more deviation from a straight path. The 120s because of the velocity and sometimes shedding petals seemed more destructive both in larger wound channels and sometimes more blood shot meat.
As to the original question any of the premium heavy for caliber bullets will give good penetration with the monolithic probably doing the best. Look at the reputation of the 160 grain 6.5 grain bullets.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Rick,
We went through some of this a couple of years ago, as I recall.
The straight penetration of solids also depends on frontal shape. Spitzers are worst, but round-nose solids aren't great either, especially if marginally stabilized. Flat-nosed solids (such FP handgun bullets) result in more damage due to a physical phenomenon called cavitation. I am not about to repeat the reasons for all this, since it's explained thoroughly in Chapter 3 of Gun Gack II.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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