Don't think when all the factors are added up that most people would disagree that the 9mm is the best OVERALL defensive firearm, especially for LE, it's the way the FBI led LE agencies around by the nose back to the original starting point is what irks most people.
When I was with Dallas PD there were 60-85 LE shootings per year. Unlike most cities we had a wide range of guns and calibers available...any S&W, Colt or Browning in: .380 (investigators only) 9mm .38 Super .38 Special .357 Magnum .41 Magnum .44 Special .44 Magnum .45 ACP .45 Auto Rim .45 Colt
Factory ammo or handloaded ammo...as long as it wasn't explosive or incendiary you were ok...
Our "hit" factor was up about 66% when the rest of the nation was about 29%...the was the 1980s... As a result there were a lot of data on what worked and what didn't. The ONLY officers I knew who changed guns and calibers were 8 of the 9 I knew personally who shot people or things with a .38 Special. Other than that one caliber I never knew anyone who who changed guns, caliber or even the brand of ammo they used.
Had several friends or co-workers who shot people with 9mm with several different loads and not one of them had any complaint. Remington HP, Federal HP and Winchester Silvertips...no problems... Then along comes the FBI shooting and all of a sudden the 9mm sucks...what sucked was the training and tactics that the FBI had to coverup and they did so by blaming the bullet.
They then brought LE...the 9mm Subsonic...disaster... 10mm...couldn't be handled by the "average" LE officer and the guns were so big people listed to one side... .40 S&W...better but still beyond what again is the average non-shooter LEO and being in a gun designed to handle 9mm was hard on both the gun and the shooter....and now 30 YEARS LATER we are led back to...the 9mm...because there was nothing wrong with it in the first place.
And the excuse is, well now there are "magic" 9mm bullets....BS....you don't need a XTP, Critical Defense, Xtreme Defender or any other big name bullet...what you have to do is plant one of them where it will do the most good... Are some "better" than what was available back in 1986...sure...but marginally so.
There are too many variables in every shooting to worry about your designer ammo... Pick a system that hits where you look and you can carry all the time...that's what's important...
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
Don't think when all the factors are added up that most people would disagree that the 9mm is the best OVERALL defensive firearm, especially for LE, it's the way the FBI led LE agencies around by the nose back to the original starting point is what irks most people.
When I was with Dallas PD there were 60-85 LE shootings per year. Unlike most cities we had a wide range of guns and calibers available...any S&W, Colt or Browning in: .380 (investigators only) 9mm .38 Super .38 Special .357 Magnum .41 Magnum .44 Special .44 Magnum .45 ACP .45 Auto Rim .45 Colt
Factory ammo or handloaded ammo...as long as it wasn't explosive or incendiary you were ok...
Our "hit" factor was up about 66% when the rest of the nation was about 29%...the was the 1980s... As a result there were a lot of data on what worked and what didn't. The ONLY officers I knew who changed guns and calibers were 8 of the 9 I knew personally who shot people or things with a .38 Special. Other than that one caliber I never knew anyone who who changed guns, caliber or even the brand of ammo they used.
Had several friends or co-workers who shot people with 9mm with several different loads and not one of them had any complaint. Remington HP, Federal HP and Winchester Silvertips...no problems... Then along comes the FBI shooting and all of a sudden the 9mm sucks...what sucked was the training and tactics that the FBI had to coverup and they did so by blaming the bullet.
They then brought LE...the 9mm Subsonic...disaster... 10mm...couldn't be handled by the "average" LE officer and the guns were so big people listed to one side... .40 S&W...better but still beyond what again is the average non-shooter LEO and being in a gun designed to handle 9mm was hard on both the gun and the shooter....and now 30 YEARS LATER we are led back to...the 9mm...because there was nothing wrong with it in the first place.
And the excuse is, well now there are "magic" 9mm bullets....BS....you don't need a XTP, Critical Defense, Xtreme Defender or any other big name bullet...what you have to do is plant one of them where it will do the most good... Are some "better" than what was available back in 1986...sure...but marginally so.
There are too many variables in every shooting to worry about your designer ammo... Pick a system that hits where you look and you can carry all the time...that's what's important...
Actually, the did when they were going to adopt the 10MM and that gave birth to the 40. And now again the 9. It recoils less and the 'smaller officer/agent, aka females is "A" factor, not the only one but it's certainly there. As to the FBi. RJM's post nails it (again) poor training and tactics. Here at my job, I have several LEOs that work for us Part Time and I can tell you that at least on paper, I can out shoot every single one of them and for that matter, just about most of my other 90 plus guys/gals. The only ones that manage consistent high scores (240) are "gun loonies" who shoot A LOT. We here as well as the LEOs out in town shoot about twice a year on average. I shoot every week.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Actually, the did when they were going to adopt the 10MM and that gave birth to the 40. And now again the 9. It recoils less and the 'smaller officer/agent, aka females is "A" factor, not the only one but it's certainly there. As to the FBi. RJM's post nails it (again) poor training and tactics. Here at my job, I have several LEOs that work for us Part Time and I can tell you that at least on paper, I can out shoot every single one of them and for that matter, just about most of my other 90 plus guys/gals. The only ones that manage consistent high scores (240) are "gun loonies" who shoot A LOT. We here as well as the LEOs out in town shoot about twice a year on average. I shoot every week.
The FBI wasn't going to adopt the 10mm. They did. And it was a poor decision. That's what happens when LE agencies accept the guidance of people that are high on theory and low on experience.
I don't know where you get your information but LE agencies that are struggling with attrition rates don't change out their firearms. They change out their qualification course/requirements for hire.
IME you find just as many male shooters that struggle as you do female. However it is rare that a female is an exceptional shooter. This is due to their inherent inferiority.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Re: comparing bullets, cartridges, and performance in a consistent media - this might be useful. As I stated earlier in this thread, PH videos do not give me any 'scientific' info that is relevant......no consistency. Just me.....to each their own.
Another link of street stats seems to have been taken down from free public viewing.....maybe the above will be insightful for folks choosing rounds and ammo.
"IME you find just as many male shooters that struggle as you do female. However it is rare that a female is an exceptional shooter. This is due to their inherent inferiority."
...would have to disagree with the learned Mr. deflave... 99% of the time it is a [bleep] instructor, not the student. As 95% of LEOs are not "shooters", 95% of their instructors aren't either and as such have limited clue what they are doing...
Couple of examples...really horror stories..
1977...I go through the Dallas Police Academy Firearms Training Program... There are 2500 officers on the force...the whole Firearms Training Unit consists of one sergeant and four patrolman... Besides a class of new recruits every 8 weeks for one solid week, they maintain all the departments firearms, make all the .38 Special practice ammo, maintain the range and a bunch of other stuff I can't remember...5 guys...
What however was exceptional was: All were competitive shooters All were hunters All were excellent shots with rifle, pistol, shotguns and automatic weapons All could fix and maintain the departmental weapons All were excellent TEACHERS ...and all had killed someone in the line of duty... And that is why we had such a high officer hit rate...these guys KNEW how to teach...and how to motivate you to do your best...
Unfortunately in the mid-1980s we got a new chief who had political aspirations....so what do you do with a Dream Team..of old white guys...you transfer them all back to Patrol and put in women and minorities some of whom could barely qualify themselves and had been to remedial training...
The last department I was with had about 40% women...some of whom had never qualified...yes, you read that correctly....never qualified....but that is another story.
Two of the women in my office would not sleep for two weeks before qualification because they knew they were going to fail and have to do remedial... I did several sessions with them and another woman in the office who usually just barely qualified and funny...the next qualification all three shot low 90s...and never again failed to qualify.
And the chief instructor...a VERY good shot and knowledgeable firearms guy...who had no clue how to teach... But because he was politically connected the powers that could have removed him, and knew what the problem was, didn't have the balls to do so...
The year before I retired there were three opening for firearms training...I was turned down by the CI...and who got the positions...WM who had just had a written reprimand for flashing his gun/badge while off duty drinking in a watering home in his area of responsibility... HF...who shot next to me at the spring qualification and failed twice (one of those who never qualified) but when taken forward alone by the CI miraculously passed... And the last one...the marginal WF shooter from my office. At Central one day the CI came up to her and said she would be going to next firearms instructor school in the fall. When she asked "Why me, I'm still trying to figure out what I'm doing..." His words back were "The department wants women, and you're it..."
I've had conversations with a lot of officers from all over the country and many have their own horror stories...
And that is why Officer Dick and Officer Jane can't shoot.
I can't make this [bleep] up...my imagination just isn't that good...
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
Actually, the did when they were going to adopt the 10MM and that gave birth to the 40. And now again the 9. It recoils less and the 'smaller officer/agent, aka females is "A" factor, not the only one but it's certainly there. As to the FBi. RJM's post nails it (again) poor training and tactics. Here at my job, I have several LEOs that work for us Part Time and I can tell you that at least on paper, I can out shoot every single one of them and for that matter, just about most of my other 90 plus guys/gals. The only ones that manage consistent high scores (240) are "gun loonies" who shoot A LOT. We here as well as the LEOs out in town shoot about twice a year on average. I shoot every week.
The FBI wasn't going to adopt the 10mm. They did. And it was a poor decision. That's what happens when LE agencies accept the guidance of people that are high on theory and low on experience.
I don't know where you get your information but LE agencies that are struggling with attrition rates don't change out their firearms. They change out their qualification course/requirements for hire.
IME you find just as many male shooters that struggle as you do female. However it is rare that a female is an exceptional shooter. This is due to their inherent inferiority.
I agree it was not a well thought out decision.As to the weapons change out, two things: I was merely pointing out the FBI's decision to go to the GLock 9mm when their current weapon/caliber were not worn out of lacking in effectiveness and the recoil issue WAS mentioned and here in my world, when contracts change, companies change out weapons all the time. We are currently in the process of going from the M-9 to the S&W M&P (which is a good thing in my opinion) but two contracts ago we went from the Ruger to the Beretta. And yes, poor training and tactics were at the root of the FBIs disaster, but I think most here said as much so no revelation there.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
I agree it was not a well thought out decision.As to the weapons change out, two things: I was merely pointing out the FBI's decision to go to the GLock 9mm when their current weapon/caliber were not worn out of lacking in effectiveness and the recoil issue WAS mentioned and here in my world, when contracts change, companies change out weapons all the time. We are currently in the process of going from the M-9 to the S&W M&P (which is a good thing in my opinion) but two contracts ago we went from the Ruger to the Beretta. And yes, poor training and tactics were at the root of the FBIs disaster, but I think most here said as much so no revelation there.
So are you still thinking that 9mm's are only for pussy's.................or has your thinking been subject to revision?
I agree it was not a well thought out decision.As to the weapons change out, two things: I was merely pointing out the FBI's decision to go to the GLock 9mm when their current weapon/caliber were not worn out of lacking in effectiveness and the recoil issue WAS mentioned and here in my world, when contracts change, companies change out weapons all the time. We are currently in the process of going from the M-9 to the S&W M&P (which is a good thing in my opinion) but two contracts ago we went from the Ruger to the Beretta. And yes, poor training and tactics were at the root of the FBIs disaster, but I think most here said as much so no revelation there.
So are you still thinking that 9mm's are only for pussy's.................or has your thinking been subject to revision?
MM
I'm a 45 ACP man all the way......
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
That works too. About as well as the 9mm, .40 S&W, ect.
LOL. Yep. Seems to be the case. You need to step up to rifle or shotgun to get a significant improvement in stopping power from any of the military/police handgun calibers.
