For me though, 10.5" is as short as I'll go in 5.56.
52's are still pretty respectable out of a 10.5" barrel:
Code
Cartridge : 5.56 mm NATO - 5.56 x 45 mm
Bullet : .224, 52, Nosler CC HPBT 53294
Useable Case Capaci: 26.481 grain H2O = 1.719 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length : 10.5 inch = 266.7 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61500 psi, or 424 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 108 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Winchester 748 105.9 27.8 1.80 2816 88.4 61500 18757 0.560 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 aka H322 100.7 25.4 1.64 2815 92.8 61500 18290 0.558 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 107.1 25.4 1.64 2815 92.8 61500 18290 0.558 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x *C 104.7 24.1 1.56 2808 96.5 61500 18139 0.571 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 296 77.9 20.4 1.32 2803 99.7 61500 17346 0.573 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2207 aka H4198 99.0 22.6 1.46 2802 99.5 61500 17291 0.568 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198 103.7 22.7 1.47 2799 97.7 61500 17144 0.554 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 100.7 26.8 1.74 2797 91.2 61500 18238 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200 *C 100.6 24.0 1.56 2793 97.3 61500 18014 0.583 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015 107.5 25.1 1.63 2786 95.6 61500 17821 0.575 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 86.2 20.1 1.30 2785 97.7 61500 16983 0.553 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle 88.2 20.1 1.30 2785 97.7 61500 16983 0.553 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 108.0 25.5 1.65 2783 96.7 56241 18547 0.583 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 108.0 28.8 1.86 2780 86.4 60293 18550 0.570 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 *C 106.3 26.1 1.69 2780 87.6 61500 17984 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 106.2 26.4 1.71 2776 92.9 61500 17599 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 *C 101.6 22.6 1.47 2774 99.9 61500 16303 0.567 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 93.9 21.0 1.36 2773 99.4 61500 16287 0.556 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 *C 96.0 21.8 1.41 2772 99.9 61500 16297 0.566 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-7 97.8 23.1 1.50 2770 97.3 61500 17117 0.570 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar 108.0 28.2 1.83 2765 84.6 60731 18018 0.566 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 103.9 27.3 1.77 2764 88.9 61500 17940 0.578 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 90.0 22.9 1.49 2764 94.5 61500 17000 0.561 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Blackout 82.8 21.1 1.37 2764 97.8 61500 16404 0.553 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130 *C 107.0 24.4 1.58 2761 96.4 61500 16963 0.568 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 93.1 20.8 1.35 2758 98.9 61500 16082 0.555 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 97.9 24.3 1.57 2758 90.6 61500 17223 0.562 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World AR Plus 102.2 26.7 1.73 2757 88.8 61500 17624 0.573 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 108.0 27.8 1.80 2755 88.8 58397 18389 0.585 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210 100.7 25.4 1.65 2753 89.1 61500 17316 0.564 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 108.0 26.4 1.71 2750 87.1 60208 17650 0.570 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H110 79.2 20.8 1.34 2750 100.0 61500 15857 0.573 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 99.4 22.8 1.48 2749 93.1 61500 16615 0.556 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 102.9 27.2 1.76 2744 86.4 61500 17382 0.571 ! Near Maximum !
ADI BM2 aka Benchmark 98.5 25.6 1.66 2744 89.2 61500 17153 0.565 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 107.0 25.7 1.67 2742 89.0 61500 17126 0.565 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Lil'Gun 78.0 19.8 1.28 2742 100.0 61500 15151 0.577 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Tactical Rifle 101.0 26.3 1.70 2734 87.0 61500 16953 0.564 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator *C 104.7 27.3 1.77 2733 85.2 61500 17213 0.567 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC *C 107.0 28.2 1.83 2723 80.9 61500 17135 0.566 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant 2400 75.2 17.4 1.13 2721 100.0 61500 14416 0.559 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N110 *C 89.4 18.5 1.20 2709 100.0 61500 14226 0.567 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 108.0 26.4 1.71 2706 84.4 56429 17817 0.591 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4100 76.5 19.3 1.25 2706 100.0 61500 14349 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
For me though, 10.5" is as short as I'll go in 5.56.
52's are still pretty respectable out of a 10.5" barrel:
Code
Cartridge : 5.56 mm NATO - 5.56 x 45 mm
Bullet : .224, 52, Nosler CC HPBT 53294
Useable Case Capaci: 26.481 grain H2O = 1.719 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length : 10.5 inch = 266.7 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61500 psi, or 424 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 108 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Winchester 748 105.9 27.8 1.80 2816 88.4 61500 18757 0.560 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 aka H322 100.7 25.4 1.64 2815 92.8 61500 18290 0.558 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 107.1 25.4 1.64 2815 92.8 61500 18290 0.558 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x *C 104.7 24.1 1.56 2808 96.5 61500 18139 0.571 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 296 77.9 20.4 1.32 2803 99.7 61500 17346 0.573 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2207 aka H4198 99.0 22.6 1.46 2802 99.5 61500 17291 0.568 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198 103.7 22.7 1.47 2799 97.7 61500 17144 0.554 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 100.7 26.8 1.74 2797 91.2 61500 18238 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200 *C 100.6 24.0 1.56 2793 97.3 61500 18014 0.583 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015 107.5 25.1 1.63 2786 95.6 61500 17821 0.575 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 86.2 20.1 1.30 2785 97.7 61500 16983 0.553 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle 88.2 20.1 1.30 2785 97.7 61500 16983 0.553 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 108.0 25.5 1.65 2783 96.7 56241 18547 0.583 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 108.0 28.8 1.86 2780 86.4 60293 18550 0.570 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 *C 106.3 26.1 1.69 2780 87.6 61500 17984 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 106.2 26.4 1.71 2776 92.9 61500 17599 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 *C 101.6 22.6 1.47 2774 99.9 61500 16303 0.567 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 93.9 21.0 1.36 2773 99.4 61500 16287 0.556 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 *C 96.0 21.8 1.41 2772 99.9 61500 16297 0.566 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-7 97.8 23.1 1.50 2770 97.3 61500 17117 0.570 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar 108.0 28.2 1.83 2765 84.6 60731 18018 0.566 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 103.9 27.3 1.77 2764 88.9 61500 17940 0.578 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 90.0 22.9 1.49 2764 94.5 61500 17000 0.561 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Blackout 82.8 21.1 1.37 2764 97.8 61500 16404 0.553 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130 *C 107.0 24.4 1.58 2761 96.4 61500 16963 0.568 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 93.1 20.8 1.35 2758 98.9 61500 16082 0.555 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 97.9 24.3 1.57 2758 90.6 61500 17223 0.562 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World AR Plus 102.2 26.7 1.73 2757 88.8 61500 17624 0.573 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 108.0 27.8 1.80 2755 88.8 58397 18389 0.585 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210 100.7 25.4 1.65 2753 89.1 61500 17316 0.564 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 108.0 26.4 1.71 2750 87.1 60208 17650 0.570 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H110 79.2 20.8 1.34 2750 100.0 61500 15857 0.573 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 99.4 22.8 1.48 2749 93.1 61500 16615 0.556 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 102.9 27.2 1.76 2744 86.4 61500 17382 0.571 ! Near Maximum !
ADI BM2 aka Benchmark 98.5 25.6 1.66 2744 89.2 61500 17153 0.565 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 107.0 25.7 1.67 2742 89.0 61500 17126 0.565 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Lil'Gun 78.0 19.8 1.28 2742 100.0 61500 15151 0.577 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Tactical Rifle 101.0 26.3 1.70 2734 87.0 61500 16953 0.564 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator *C 104.7 27.3 1.77 2733 85.2 61500 17213 0.567 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC *C 107.0 28.2 1.83 2723 80.9 61500 17135 0.566 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant 2400 75.2 17.4 1.13 2721 100.0 61500 14416 0.559 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N110 *C 89.4 18.5 1.20 2709 100.0 61500 14226 0.567 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 108.0 26.4 1.71 2706 84.4 56429 17817 0.591 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4100 76.5 19.3 1.25 2706 100.0 61500 14349 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
Yeah that's not bad, breaking 2800.
Even the 75/77s will easily break 2400, and still be in the 1800-1900 fps and 600 ft-lbs range at 300 yards.
With the 10.5, I zero at 40 yards, giving a 200+ point blank range +/- 2", and about 12" low at 300. I'd imagine the 52-55gr stuff at 2800 would a bit flatter to 300.
I just feel we have gone so far afield with this gun. It’s originally a high velocity 22 with a fragmenting bullet, now everyone is shooting 77 grain bullets at moderate velocities
Long range shooters started shooting the heavier high BC bullets and the military started using open tip match bullets to get better lethal performance than ball ammo.
The high velocity 55 grain fmj ammo that some say was so deadly has just as many people saying how inefficient it was. In fact, studies show it's (M193) marginal at best. It can yaw and break apart causing lots of damage or it can pencil right on through. The 62 grain ammo was brought out to increase effectiveness on body armor at 300 meters and suffers the same problems as any FMJ ammo does.
For our uses, I'd much rather have a 55 grain NBT or TSX but I've killed enough stuff with the 77 grain OTM bullets to have them loaded in my home defense mags.
Long range shooters started shooting the heavier high BC bullets and the military started using open tip match bullets to get better lethal performance than ball ammo.
Yep, there's a reason that the various SOG groups who get to choose their ammo, generally use 77 gr OTM bullets.
Surely nothing wrong with heavier tipped bullets, TSX's, various bonded bullets, Gold Dots, etc., either.................and IMHO, all of those are better choices that 55 gr FMJ of improved & more consistent performance.
So for the 55's, M193 they sure are hell on jackrabbits out to 100 yards from a 20 inch gun, my personal experience is that I have not seen a single rabbit where the bullet penciled through. Does anyone know if the M193 was more barrier blind than the heavier match bullets?
Personally, I wouldn't want anything under 14" without a suppressor.
I've shot some shorty AKs, unsuppressed short 5.56 ARs and had a 16" 308 with a noise-maker on the muzzle. They were my idea of hell to shoot. I might as well have driven nails into my ears.
So for the 55's, M193 they sure are hell on jackrabbits out to 100 yards from a 20 inch gun, my personal experience is that I have not seen a single rabbit where the bullet penciled through. Does anyone know if the M193 was more barrier blind than the heavier match bullets?
A jackrabbit is small enough that the temporary stretch cavity is larger than it is. Of course high velocity pops them.
First, rifle rounds produce rifle wounds. However, having put my hands inside of wounds created by M193 and the ilk, M193 is not impressive compared to other projectiles. There’s as much nonsense and myth around 20”/55gr as there is for 7.62x39mm. If ether hits bone, wounds can be graphic. But just as often they are mostly through and through without anything dramatic.
M193 in this day and age is a garbage projectile for use against humans. Yes it will kill them, however there are dozens of better, more reliable, more consistent performers. As far as being barrier blind, both M193 and MK262 suffer greatly through barriers. I.E..- they both suck.
As for barrel length- fighting has a lot more than just “velocity and bullet”. Some believe that fighting and tactics haven’t achanged in 50 years.... Size and weight matter. But, people also seem to think that the military is still stuck in 2004 where it was between M855 and MK262. In that case, yes MK262 was better. But it isn’t 2004 anymore. The currently issued standard round for the US military is extremely effective in tissue. It has precision issues (like M193 and M855), but Terminal performance even out of 10.5” guns is excellent. You can’t tell the difference inside of 300m between A1 from a 10.5” and A1 from a 20” barrel.
Out of the 12.5” barrels on my carbines, full fragmentation of M855A1 is achieved past past 500m at SAC. What would carrying a musket do for me?
Personally, I wouldn't want anything under 14" without a suppressor.
I've shot some shorty AKs, unsuppressed short 5.56 ARs and had a 16" 308 with a noise-maker on the muzzle. They were my idea of hell to shoot. I might as well have driven nails into my ears.
I agree with you. Hence the reason I shoot rifle length gas systems and 20" barrels. Anything else makes me feel like my noodle is getting knocked loose. It even takes my eyes a while to adjust after shooting crapbines. Just don't prefer them...
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
If you track down the guys in Montana Marine's pics and asked them how they liked their short barreled carbines, they'd say "WHAT?" "Speak up and look at me!". Ears are shot...
Carried a CAR-15 for a bit during my last tour in Nam (see the old pics above). They were cute and all that, but I preferred the M16. Recollection is that all the Sneaky Pete wankers carried the CAR, but they were operating in close cover for the most part. I wasn't.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
Was the Range Safety Officer at our local gun club range, open to the public, yesterday. Lots of people with AR pistols. Had to wear double ear protection (plugs and muffs). It was LOUD out there.
Last edited by David_Walter; 05/17/20.
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General John Stark.
So for the 55's, M193 they sure are hell on jackrabbits out to 100 yards from a 20 inch gun, my personal experience is that I have not seen a single rabbit where the bullet penciled through. Does anyone know if the M193 was more barrier blind than the heavier match bullets?
A jackrabbit is small enough that the temporary stretch cavity is larger than it is. Of course high velocity pops them.
First, rifle rounds produce rifle wounds. However, having put my hands inside of wounds created by M193 and the ilk, M193 is not impressive compared to other projectiles. There’s as much nonsense and myth around 20”/55gr as there is for 7.62x39mm. If ether hits bone, wounds can be graphic. But just as often they are mostly through and through without anything dramatic.
M193 in this day and age is a garbage projectile for use against humans. Yes it will kill them, however there are dozens of better, more reliable, more consistent performers. As far as being barrier blind, both M193 and MK262 suffer greatly through barriers. I.E..- they both suck.
As for barrel length- fighting has a lot more than just “velocity and bullet”. Some believe that fighting and tactics haven’t achanged in 50 years.... Size and weight matter. But, people also seem to think that the military is still stuck in 2004 where it was between M855 and MK262. In that case, yes MK262 was better. But it isn’t 2004 anymore. The currently issued standard round for the US military is extremely effective in tissue. It has precision issues (like M193 and M855), but Terminal performance even out of 10.5” guns is excellent. You can’t tell the difference inside of 300m between A1 from a 10.5” and A1 from a 20” barrel.
Out of the 12.5” barrels on my carbines, full fragmentation of M855A1 is achieved past past 500m at SAC. What would carrying a musket do for me?
Formidilosus, once again, thank your for your contribution.
In other words, it's like taking a Nosler E-tip or a TTSX, and replacing the plastic insert with a hardened steel penetration twice the size of the one in the original M855.
That's quite a combination. Hopefully they can get the accuracy issues under control:
Short barreled AR's have been around since the 60's. Their purpose is lighter weight/convenience. End users should try and match barrel twist and projectile accordingly.
Yes they will hurt your ears if you have to shoot a threat without hearing protection.
So will a 4" 29-2. And a J-frame in .357. And a Shield in .40 S&W....
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Formidilosus, once again, thank your for your contribution.
In other words, it's like taking a Nosler E-tip or a TTSX, and replacing the plastic insert with a hardened steel penetration twice the size of the one in the original M855.
That's quite a combination. Hopefully they can get the accuracy issues under control:
The M855A1 projectile is actually kind of unique. It is a three part projectile- a copper jacket, a solid copper plug in the base, and a steel arrowhead tip. Because of the combination of those three parts, it produces rapid and immediate fragmentation of the jacket, the tip separates and causes a secondary wound path, and the solid copper plug penetrates an average of 16-20 inches depending on barrier.
Unfortunately they will do nothing about the precision. The allowable MR for ball ammo has been abysmal since M193. There is a barrel/upper combo that shoots it significantly better, but the broad US military will not adapt anything new for M4’s.
Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
Originally Posted by Formidilosus
….Out of the 12.5” barrels on my carbines, full fragmentation of M855A1 is achieved past past 500m at SAC. What would carrying a musket do for me?
Keep rockin' that musketoon then...….grin
The Marines using the M27 with suppressor.... whoof. That’s a musket.
Originally Posted by jimmyp
another thought, not sure I as a peon can buy A1. What I wonder is the next best thing?
M855A1 is not commercially available. Anything out there is take home from someone’s pocket.
As for the next best thing, I wouldn’t say A1 is the best thing. It is certainly effective, but from a soft tissue perspective there are better. Probably the best general purpose 0-600m, barrier blind 5.56mm bullet is the 75gr Gold Dot. Near match accurate (sub 2moa for 30 round groups), truly barrier blind, decent BC, and has some level of upset below 1,600fps impact. From a soft tissue and light barrier perspective, the 77gr TMK was designed to maximize performance in that realm amd is extremely capable at it.
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