Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Let's Talk About 45-70

Today I ran 13gr of Red Dot with the Speer 300gr FNHP bullet and got excellent accuracy from my 22" Handi Rifle.

Velocity averaged 1255fps 8ft from the muzzle.

Besides the obvious answer stating "it's already 45cal", what are your thoughts about expansion at that speed and if it's too slow, how much speed is needed? I'm not interesed in full or even half throttles loads, just fast enough to work well.

Thanks, Dinny

Because you are asking about expansion is it safe to assume that you intend to use this as a hunting load? If you plan to hunt anything larger than small game, I would be more concerned about adequate penetration than expansion. I think your load is fine for small game. If you want more expansion I'd use pure soft lead.


Did you use any filler with the red dot load? If not, any ignition issues?


For what it is worth, my plinker load with zero recoil is 25 grains of H322 behind a 405 grain bullet. Its an absolute tack driver in my Guide gun and hits the same poi as my full power loads, but has zero recoil.

throw some wet news print in a box and shoot it. might see if it will expand at a say like 50 yards. Wont be exact science, but you might get an idea what that bullet will do . M8x57

Back in the day, I used a defective Lyman two-cavity 250-grain cavity mold to make cast bullets for my Siamese Mauser. No recoil, very little noise, and lots of penetration. I used 13 grains of Unique with a 2 inch square of kleenex or toilet paper tamped down on the powder. It was pure hell on squirrels and any other critter. Never used this load on deer, I'm sure that close up it would go all the way through

I would like to hunt deer with it. Somehow I doubt 300gr of any 45cal bullet at 1250fps will lack penetration at ranges shorter than 100yds. No filler used with Red Dot, never have had any ignition issues using it.

I'll give H322 a try.

My newspaper supply dried up a few months ago so testing in that media will have to wait.

Thanks, Dinny

500grns at about 1600fps - shot into damp sand....

RL-7 is the powder for 45-70 IMHO

Muffin,
I have some of those exact bullets. 500gr at 1600fps doesn't seem like fun.

Thanks, Dinny

out of a Marlin Cowboy gun they are bit on the stout side...........

For 'everyday' use i ran them about 1300 FP.............

It's 0.45 caliber. With any penetration, why worry about expansion.

As I predicted, it was only a matter of time...

Thanks, Dinny

That’s a tough bullet. I shoot them at 1985fps and the only one I’ve ever recovered had 90% weight retention and 1” expansion. If I was shooting 300’s that slow I would look for softer, Sierra and the Hornady is slightly softer.

Too bad the Remington 300’s are discontinued. I have 100 or so and they’re quite soft.

Bearcat's right, I've used the Speer at 2200 fps and indications were that the bullet did not expand too rapidly, never had one stop in an animal.

Anything over 1900 fps with the Hornady resulted in a lot of jellied meat.

I can't comment on the Sierra.

Thanks for the info and confirmation. I'll ramp them up a bit or switch bullets.

One other thought....I have a tool to make hollowpoints. Do any of you think a 1/8" wide by 1/4" deep HP will help any?

Thanks, Dinny

I don’t think a bigger hollow point would hurt but I can’t say for sure. The one I recovered was from a big doe at 7yds. It broke the right shoulder and I got the bullet from her left hip.


If you’re looking for a big hollow point that would work at low velocities I think these would be worth a try.

https://www.gtbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=12&products_id=61

The first 20 years of shooting a "big bore" was with the 45-70. Unless being fired from a Ruger #1 or a rifle of like strength at maximum velocity I never discovered any necessity or even a reason for any jacketed bullet and especially a hollow point.

For hunting, I prefer the Speer 300 grain JFP pushed at top end loads of Re-7 (2000+ fps). The hydrostatic shock (temporary wound cavity) and the permanent wound cavity created by the expanding bullet cause instant collapse.
I have killed deer with original BPC guns using original load ballistics and soft cast bullets designed for the caliber... 405 hollow base in 45-70 and 450 grain in 50-70, both around 1350 fps. Both punch right through deer but they run off a bit before succumbing to blood loss.
You can get a bit more energy transfer with the use of a large flat nose bullet. If you shoulder shoot deer with cast bullets you can get faster results but with meat damage.
If you do decide to go top end with JHP, stay away from the Remington 300 grain. It has a very deep HP and blows apart in deer at the top end velocities. It might be a good choice at lower speeds, but I have never shot such loads. Chest shots only..
Even in my original Winchester 1886, I prefer a jacketed bullet. That one likes the 400 Speer around 1800 fps. However recoil is getting heavy for extended shooting sessions. In a Marlin 1895, I have shot this bullet to 1950 fps but I can only handle about 10 rounds before starting to be bothered by the recoil.

I believe I may focus my efforts on finding an accurate load for the 330gr Lyman Gould HP. I can tailor the alloy to expand at whatever velocity shoots the best.

Thanks, Dinny

Paper patched .452 pistol bullets, both jacketed and cast, would open up a lot of options for the OP. They'd go with that handi-rifle like turkey and dressing. Though granted, paper patching is somewhat of a labor of love.

I tried some 270SAA's (286 grain Keith type bullet, Miha's version for those in the know), over 15 grains of Trail Boss out of my #1, and was very pleasantly surprised (about 1250fps) for my first paper patching attempt. I've not shot them past 50 yards, and wouldn't see flinging them much past 75 to begin with.

Patched 300 XTP's, or the Lee 300RF over Trail Boss prolly wouldn't suck and you could heat them up a bit if you so chose.

I shot ten of the 330gr Lyman Gould with 13gr of Red Dot powder today. Accuracy was just under 1" at 50yds and averaged 1270fps. I'm plenty happy with that and the 2" groups I got at 100yds.

I shot ten of the 405gr Rem JSP with 25gr of A2400. Accuracy hovered just under 1" at 50yds and averaged 1340fps.

I also shot five 350gr Ranch Dog LFPs with 28gr of A2400. Accuracy was 1.5" at 50yds and 1650fps. I wasn't expecting that much speed. I plan to tweak that load a bit to get a little better accuracy.

All in all, I'm happy with today's results. Once I get morr newspapers to soak I'll test all of them in my bullet box to see how the bullets perform at those speeds.

Thanks, Dinny