Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Decisions to be made about an old SxS shotgun

I have a couple of questions concerning setting up a new (old) SxS shotgun.

I just came across a VG condition Simson side-by-side: 12 gauge, 28 inch barrels with double triggers and extractors. It is what appears to be an exact clone of the Merkel Model 8. As I've always wanted a side-by-side, and as the price was too good to pass up, I took it home.

The gun fits me beautifully - my right eye centers just above the low rib with brass bead without thought as I press my cheek to the stock. Lockup is tight and very smooth. Metal has some pinpricks of rust but there are no cracks or splits in the stock. Both barrels shoot to the same point, roughly 4 inches high at 20 yards. It weighs a touch above 7 lbs.

My gunsmith is going to refurbish the gun - new case colors (bone and charcoal) on the receiver, re-blue the barrels, redo the stock with a satin oil finish.

But before I turn it over to him, I have to decide on a couple of sticky points.

First, as this is a 50+ year old German shotgun, the barrels are typically choked full and extra full. How far do I open them up? I'll be using it for grouse and quail in the desert areas of northern Nevada. I'm planning on using fairly light loads with no more than 1 oz of lead and a max charge of 2 3/4 dram, trying to keep velocity a bit below 1200 fps. I may go as light as 7/8 ounce of lead, if I can find it in a factory load (I don't reload).

Second, the shotgun needs a recoil pad. Even with reduced loads, it will be nowhere near as comfortable to shoot as my Miroku 20ga O/U or my Benelli M2 12ga. There are dozens of pads to choose from, and I'm baffled. This is not a target gun, it is a field gun, and I need something that won't snag on my clothing during a fast mount and a quick shot. My gunsmith just says to pick up a grind-to-fit that I like and he will take care of the rest.

Third, the triggers seem a little heavy - but that may just be me. I don't do a lot of shotgun shooting, and my rifle triggers are all set up at 3.5 lbs. What breaking weight should the triggers have for the hunting I'm going to do?

These are my guesses, but I've never owned a SxS before, so perhaps you guys could offer a little advice: 1. right barrel Skeet or I/C, left barrel Light Modified. 2. Pachmayr Decelerator Sporting Clay Pad. 3. 4 lbs right barrel, 5 lbs left?

Is there anything else I'm missing?

Here is a copy of the post I added in the shotgun section:

You are leaning the right direction with chokes, though for the purposes you mention, I would go just a little tighter, especially in the right barrel. I have found on wild prairie/mountain birds that I like something akin to LM in the first barrel, IM or LF in the second. Were it mine I would specify .012”/.025” choke for the right and left barrels respectively. I have shot this combination in double guns in similar conditions for years and think it’s about perfect. Incidentally, I have never regretted having a much tighter second barrel, and have many times been thankful for it.

As to pad, and I say this as a sporting clays instructor and gun fitter, I would avoid the “sporting clays” pads that have the heel of the pad cut at an angle. Some argue that this is to avoid snagging on mounting the gun. My comment is that in most cases this speaks to a poor technique. That angle reduces the pad‘a contact area at a point where it’s useful. I like Kick Eez pads, and would recommend their conventional black pad .7” thick. I would have the gunsmithing round the edges of the pad slightly.

This also is a chance to lengthen the length of pull, as most German guns, especially older ones, are too short for most people. Be careful here, though, as there is about a 3/1 rule in play in either shortening or lengthening a stock. The placement of the cheek on the stock will move about three times the amount added to or subtracted from the stock length. A small adjustment in length is a relatively large adjustment in face position on the comb. Also note that adjusting length changes the drop of the stock at your face. From your description of the impact at 20 yards, a small adjustment of 1/4 to 3/8” in length shouldn’t make it too low.

As to ammo, I would choose a high quality one ounce load, probably #7 1/2. Get the lowest velocity you can; about 1200 fps is perfect. You might even find you like 7/8 oz. these punch above their weight in performance and are very pleasant to shoot. This promotes practice...and hitting!

Get the triggers lightened, by somebody who knows what they are about. Good trigger pulls on a shotgun are important.

A mate of mine has one of these, and it is a good sound gun.

Before doing anything at all to it, I'd suggest that you get some shells of the 7/8 to 1 oz standard velocity, and perhaps some spreader loads if you can find them, and go and shoot some Sporting Clays. You may find that the things you are worried about are, in practice, not that big an issue.

Take the chokes, for example. Yes, German guns tend to have tight chokes. This puts a bit of a premium on your shooting. With heavier loads it can also see game smashed up. However you can get spreader loads, and 7/8 oz loads are less inclined to smash stuff than a heavier charge. You can always open it up a bit if you really can't use it as-is. I used to get a lot more stressed about this than I do now, and while I like to go IC and Mod for most purposes on guns with interchangeable chokes, I have a couple of tightly-choked Europeans with which I do about as well.

As for recoil pads, if the gun fits you, a 7 lb gun should be quite manageable with your standard velocity 7/8 - 1 oz loads without one, especially for field use. I have shot one of these Simsons sans recoil pad, and have a couple of guns lighter, and none seems to need a pad for standard velocity loads even of 1 1/8 oz. Of course if it is uncomfortable, or too short, you may feel the need, but try it first. If you do end up getting a pad, make sure you get the LOP right, and the pitch (might as well, if you are going to cut the stock), and go with a smoothly rounded pad which won't be inclined to snag. I agree with the suggestion of the standard Kick-Eez grind to fit pad.

As for triggers, it isn't a rifle, and you don't squeeze the trigger. What may seem a bit heavy when squeezing off some dry fire on snap caps my not even be noticeable when you are focused on a clay or bird. If you shoot a round of sporting and you finish up still thinking they are a problem, a good gunsmith who knows what they are about on a double gun should be able to fettle them.

GF1 Knows more than I, but I was raised with side by side shotguns and like them very much. Chokes GF1 is spot on for me about 1/4 and 3/4 or skeet #2 and improved modified. Go slightly tighter as you can open up loads easily but they will only shoot so tight.

Pad Get a slip on with different inserts and shoot a bunch of clays. Once you find the optimal length then Pachmeyer old English decelerator, preferably covered in pig skin. Use shoe polish on this and no issues with it hanging up.

Triggers: not sure even what I shoot but have your smith clean and polish them and see where they are then, four and five sounds heavy but if smooth then probably good. Better than too light.

Shoot and try everything before doing something not easily reversed.

While GF1's points are all excellent, I would add that ammo choice definitely affects patterns.

I have a number of older side-by-sides, including several drillings, and tend to leave the "full and fuller" chokes alone. They're handy when hunting open country, but when hunting tighter cover (whether mountain grouse here in the West, or ruffs and woodcock in the Midwest) they work well with cheap ammo, which is typically loaded with soft shot and opens up patterns.

As for triggers, Elmer Keith (who knew a thing or two about shotguns) noted long ago that he preferred about the same trigger pull on shotguns as on rifles, around 3-4 pounds. I generally follow this myself, and while you can get away with harder trigger pulls on shotguns, I've found the gun goes off when pointed in the right direction more often when the trigger pull is light enough to pull easily when muscle memory tells you to.

Thanks, all. I REALLY appreciate the opinions based on experience.

I have a couple of shotguns - a nice, light Miroko 20ga O/U with choke tubes, and two heavier 12ga autos with tubes that are soft-shooting and near perfect for bigger birds like pheasant and waterfowl.

So this does not have to be a "do it all" kind of shotgun. I've just about settled on I/C or light Mod for the right, and Improved Modified for the left. I'll use cheap ammo with soft shot early in the season and when playing with clay targets, then pay a bit more for good ammo with hard shot when birds begin to flush farther out later in the season.

I will probably end up with a grind-to-fit black Kick-Eze with just the edges knocked off, but I like the idea of using a slip-on as a test bed until I get the length just right.

I will definitely wait until the gun has had a thorough cleaning before deciding on any trigger work, but I would like them to end up near 4 lbs.

Thanks again!

http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/2-12-Gauge.aspx?sort=PriceAsc

RST Shells has exactly what you're looking for - 1oz or 7/8, even 3/4 if you want. Not exactly cheap, but reasonable enough. I use a lot of them in my 16 and like them quite a bit.

A 7 pound gun shooting 1 ounce and 7/8 ounce loads shouldn't need a recoil pad. My SxS 12 weighs 6-3/4 pounds unloaded and has a checkered butt, recoil even with 2-3/4 drs. eq., 1-1/8 ounce loads isn't a problem at all and lighter loads hardly noticeable even shooting on hot summer days wearing thin shirts. My favorite loads are 1 ounce x 1050 fps.

Your idea for the Pachmayer sporting clays pad is right on. I have a two Beretta O/U's. A 12 and a 20 gauge. I've installed these pads on both and they work great for field work. The plastic insert on the top of the pad stops it from hanging up on clothing when mounting the gun.

You're pretty recoil conscious, it appears. One thing that's chronically overlooked when reducing recoil is lengthening forcing cones. Simsons, Merkels, Sauers, and most other German guns have short and abrupt forcing cones. Stretching them out a bunch will tame the guns and also generally give you better patterns. Too bad it's a 12ga. If it were a "proper" 16 gauge I could loan you my long forcing cone reamer.

This sounds like a worthy project.

I have a JP Sauer choked Extra full/Extra full. It's useful for Turkeys but it weighs nothing so it kicks terrible with Turkey loads.

moosemike,

What are you calling "turkey loads"?

The reason I ask is that all the turkeys I've killed with a shotgun since the early 2000s were taken with a tightly-choked Sauer Model 60 12-gauge that weighs 6 pounds, 3 ounces. I generally use 1-1/4 ounces of 5s, but have taken a couple with 1-3/8 ounces of #5 Bismuth, because a couple were taken where non-toxic shot was required. Ranges have been out to 45 yards.

FWIW, quite a few years ago I inherited an Ithaca 37 that the owner had attempted to modify from FC to a more open choke and done so very poorly. It shot poorly, 100% of the time. I sent the barrel to Briley Gunsmiths for remedy and the improvement was stellar. It quickly became my favorite scattergun. I don’t know if or how they approach modification of double guns but I’d be inclined to contact them to resolve the original question.

On another point I began reloading shotgun shells about 20 years ago, initially for 12 ga primarily used for clays. Next evolution was to load light loads specifically for clays. 7/8 oz with modest velocity and REDUCED cost. They worked quite well, so well in fact that I began using them for quail with great success. An unexpected influence had to do with the resulting patterns. Square shot columns in the realm of 1100 FPS MV shoot much tighter patterns than the 1-1/8 loads at the more common 1200-1300 FPS range. IC chokes shot like modified etc. I went to Cylinder/IC for clays and birds with the Beretta 686.

I shoot strictly sxs Galazan can provide a oeriod correct recoil pad. Before you go opening the chokes pattern the gun. I second the advise on RST shells. If you leave the chokes alone try spreaders from Poly Wad first.